Thoughts on this skimmer

[rbredding]

SnowManSnow;439988 wrote: In my limited experience, which is MUCH more than some have and MUCH less than others, haha... the world of skimmers is one of those areas that you kind of get what you pay for. Sure there are over priced skimmers out there, but for the most part a truly great skimmer is gonna set you back.

B

I understand that you get what you pay for....

I just think that you should be able to get incredible skimmate off a tank for less than a grand.. won't using ozone increase the darkness and quantity of skimmate? typically you can add that to a system to boost it for less than $200.. (right?)

grouper therapy;439993 wrote: No you do not have to spend $1000 for a skimmer that works well. But you don't have to spend $70,000 on a vehicle to get you from point A to point B either. I think it depends on your attitude toward quality and long term dependability. The Orca pro mentioned above is a high quality skimmer, skims like crazy and doubles for a storm shelter if the need should arise.

I'm not nocking the quality of a $1200 skimmer, I just don't understand how much better a $1200 skimmer is than a $400 skimmer..

does it fill the cup in a third the time on comperable systems?
does it triple the quality of the muck?

 

[grouper therapy]

Rbredding;440004 wrote:
I'm not nocking the quality of a $1200 skimmer, I just don't understand how much better a $1200 skimmer is than a $400 skimmer..

does it fill the cup in a third the time on comperable systems?
does it triple the quality of the muck?

Good questions . How does an individual compare the performance of one skimmer vs. another in terms of organics removed? Is there a way to measure organics in a system?

 

[snowmansnow]

Well you have to compare the MEASURABLE aspects of the skimmer in question. A few things I consider are:

1) how good is the pump? is it going to break or overheat in a year?
2) how much air is the device capable of pulling into the system, and how EFFICIENT is the fractioning device at chopping it into micro bubbles that are the CORRECT SIZE for skimming
3) what is the build quality of the skimmer and it's components? For instance I've seen something like a Coralife skimmer and I've seen skimmers like bubble kings. There is NO comparison in quality. (Then again some ppl would just the same drive a Yugo as a Porche .. leather seats just hold you up right)?
4) Does the skimmer employ any other mechanisms to boost EFFICIENCY? LIke a cup or riser cleaner? (this also adds to the price)
5) What device is used to fine tune the skimmer? Does it include a gate valve or something like that so you can get your levels just right or do you have to depend solely on restricting air flow (and thus compromising efficiency)?
6) Finally consider the CS and rep of the company you are buying from. I would gladly pay a little more $$ to buy a skimmer from a company that will actually HELP me trouble shoot.

I know there are other factors, but this is just what popped into my mind

 

[snowmansnow]

grouper therapy;440006 wrote: Good questions . How does an individual compare the performance of one skimmer vs. another in terms of organics removed? Is there a way to measure organics in a system?

and you would measure this by the organics in the system as you say through testing. If one skimmer leaves me with readings that are less to be desired, and another hits the mark, then one is clearly more effective.

 

[snowmansnow]

Big D;440027 wrote: <span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">Looks like you may have answered your initial question, but I'd recommend you save your money. The ATI's are OK skimmers, but not worth the price IMHO.</span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">There are a lot of options out there now as far as skimmers go, all have their pros and cons. You really need to figure out the basics of what you're looking for and go from there. Do you want an internal or external? What size bioload are you going to use it on/what size skimmer do you need? What footprint will work for your setup? How much are you looking to spend?</span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">D</span>

already answered these things haha Not going for the ATI. Going to save for a BK this summer.

Bioload = eventually pretty heavy in my 125 sps tank
Internal and small foot print
Spend limit = somewhere around a grand:yuk:

 

[snowmansnow]

Big D;440029 wrote: <span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">Oh, must have missed it. </span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS"></span>
<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">Good luck... choose wisely!</span>





<span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS">D</span>

perhaps i answered these things "IN MY MIND" bwhahahaha!

 

[johnr2604]

FWIW I saw someone selling a BK 180 on the big national site for $650.

 

[mockery]

johnr2604;440032 wrote: FWIW I saw someone selling a BK 180 on the big national site for $650.

I saw it too. Am I going to pay that no but good luck.

 

[snowmansnow]

is the 180 big enough or do i need the 200 when i get ready? Its so weird how they rate these things from one company to the next

 

[grouper therapy]

SnowManSnow;440025 wrote: and you would measure this by the organics in the system as you say through testing. If one skimmer leaves me with readings that are less to be desired, and another hits the mark, then one is clearly more effective.

As in nitrates?Phosphates?

 

[snowmansnow]

i would say nitrates.. right? Im not up on how effective skimming is at removing phosphates.. but I guess it could

B

 

[grouper therapy]

SnowManSnow;440056 wrote: i would say nitrates.. right? Im not up on how effective skimming is at removing phosphates.. but I guess it could

B

I don't think it will remove nitrates or phosphates, only the organics that convert or release both. I guess that is what I am asking is how do you really know which skimmer is removing the most organics. You can measure the results I guess. I'm sure there is a way to measure the organics somehow.

 

[acroholic]

Another thing to consider is the veracity of what the skimmer manufacturer states the system capacity of the skimmer is.

Old rule of thumb was to buy a skimmer rated for twice the actual capacity of your system, but I don't believe that is the case anymore.

Some manufacturers are conservative in their ratings now, Royal Exclusive being one of them. Reeflo was as well.
Dave

 

[grouper therapy]

Acroholic;440114 wrote: Another thing to consider is the veracity of what the skimmer manufacturer states the system capacity of the skimmer is.

Old rule of thumb was to buy a skimmer rated for twice the actual capacity of your system, but I don't believe that is the case anymore.

Some manufacturers are conservative in their ratings now, Royal Exclusive being one of them. Reeflo was as well.
Dave

Dave what are they basing those capacities on?

 

[acroholic]

grouper therapy;440118 wrote: Dave what are they basing those capacities on?

I don't believe there is a quantifiable formula for it, Dave. Basically, I was referring to the anecdotal experience of the skimmer owners. And ancecdotal experience is all anyone really has right now. The Vertex Alpha is rated up to 350 gallons by Vertex/Royal Exclusive, but folks are using them on systems up to 500 gallons without issue and they seem to perform very well. As a matter of fact, when I was looking at the Vertex Alpha series, I was going to buy the 300, which has two Red Dragon pumps instead of the one on the 250, and Jeremy at Premium told me they were very conservatively rated, and that I could get away with a 200, but for a bit of insurance I could get a 250. He talked me out of a more expensive skimmer and almost into one that was $500 less than I was willing to spend. I bought in the middle of the range, but when told by the Retailer of the Line that he is using a 350 gallon rated skimmer on a well
stocked 450-500 gallon system, I believe him.
Dave

 

[grouper therapy]

Acroholic;440123 wrote: I don't believe there is a quantifiable formula for it, Dave. Basically, I was referring to the anecdotal experience of the skimmer owners. And ancecdotal experience is all anyone really has right now. The Vertex Alpha is rated up to 350 gallons by Vertex/Royal Exclusive, but folks are using them on systems up to 500 gallons without issue and they seem to perform very well. As a matter of fact, when I was looking at the Vertex Alpha series, I was going to buy the 300, which has two Red Dragon pumps instead of the one on the 250, and Jeremy at Premium told me they were very conservatively rated, and that I could get away with a 200, but for a bit of insurance I could get a 250. He talked me out of a more expensive skimmer and almost into one that was $500 less than I was willing to spend. I bought in the middle of the range, but when told by the Retailer of the Line that he is using a 350 gallon rated skimmer on a well
stocked 450-500 gallon system, I believe him.
Dave

I believe it to be true as well as far as their ratings. Especially if the rep talks you down 500 unless there was better margins in that model j/k of course. I thought their might be a (air intake to water gph processed) formulas of some type.

 

[acroholic]

That makes sense Charlie.

Personally, I think it is important to get a skimmer that works, meaning one others have had good experiences with in the same type volume/bioload as you have. What I experienced with my Orca, was that after a period of time the system became clearer and the skimmer didn't appear to be pulling as much gunk out, but the answer is, and I think this applies to any consistent skimmer, is that over time there is simply less "gunk" to pull out.
Dave

 

[skriz]

Rbredding;440004 wrote: ...I'm not nocking the quality of a $1200 skimmer, I just don't understand how much better a $1200 skimmer is than a $400 skimmer..

does it fill the cup in a third the time on comperable systems?
does it triple the quality of the muck?

To understand it, you'd have to see it. Unfortunately, that's really the only way. You can't really trust most companies with their ratings as most of them are exaggerating. There are a few with ratings more in line with reality. It's also tough for a company to rate a skimmer since different tanks will have different bioloads. For instance a 100g predator tank will have a higher bioload than a 100g seahorse tank..

Most people report the Orca Pro's pull about a gallon of dark skimmate per week. I'm sure that will decrease as the water quality improves, though. Jeremy has a Pro II in use, so he'll have a better idea of what it actually pulls out.

Oh, and yes, it does pull out more gunk and pulls it out quicker.

 

[acroholic]

dawgdude;440235 wrote: I noticed the exact same thing when I was running a MR-2R on my 90g. It was just a tad over-rated so I would notice it would skim really well for a while and then kind of hit a wall where it stopped skimming as much. I think that skimmers hit X level of efficiency and after that they cant remove any more organics. I guess its a matter of having a skimmer that can pull more organics than your system is putting in.

Yea, I think some people start thinking their skimmers aren't working anymore or not as well because they don't pull much for a period of time, when in many cases there is just nothing or a lot less to pull out.

I have been soing some selective napalming of blue clove polyps in my 210, and my Vertex 250 is getting quite a workout!
Dave

 

[jmaneyapanda]

FWIW, As far as I know, there has only ever been 1 empirical study of protein skimmer performance, summarized here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2</a>

It was quite limited in the products available, but measured actual apples to apples. Other than that, there really is no way to compare skimmers without basing it completely off heresay and personal bias.

That being said, IMHO, there is a lot of "smoke and mirrors" and hogwash and poppycock (I love using those words) in skimmer "details" that a lot of people get so caught up in. "How much LPH air does it draw?", "Is it a cone?" etc etc etc. These questions, taken alone, mean absolutely nothing. Its the overall picture and overall ratios. A lot of air per hour only works well in a certain proportioned skimmer body. So, when looking at skimmers, you need to look at the WHOLE skimmer, not just the pump, or neck, or collection cup, or whatever.