Trash cans full of SPS

sailfish · May 26, 2008

I somewhat recently was talking to someone who works at the Georgia aquarium about what they do with the corals they frag. This particular conversation was in respect to sps coral. This individual said that they were not allowed to sell them. It had to do with the zoological Association and not making money of the animals. This individual went on to say how at the previous aquarium they had thrown entire trash cans full of corals away. I know that aquariums and zoos trade back and forth and that’s great. It seem that they could find some way around this and sell the corals. Save a little reef and earn money for support and research.
 
What do you guys think?
 
I know I would love to have Georgia aquarium blue stag.
 
Seem like we should be able to do something about this.
 
Joe

liverock27 · May 26, 2008

It would be great if we could get them to donate the corals to us for a raffle to raise money for any number of charities. We could have someone come speak at one of the meetings and do the auction/raffle after they do a talk on the aquarium.

sailfish · May 26, 2008

When I went there last they did not have any I was aware off. I believe thay were having a hard time keeping there calcium up as well.

Looks like they need to switch salt brands and get a bigger calcium reactor.:lol2:

This is disterbing to me. I know the whole reason I started keeping sps was because I saw a picture of a A. Valida in a book. The Photo was take from the New York Aquarium.

Joe

drnecropolis · May 26, 2008

Last time I was there they had tons of nems in their reef tank, 1 that sticks out in mind was a RBTA that was about 1.5' across! Maybe bigger..

sshindell · May 26, 2008

It will be a few years before the corals get to the point of propagating....But they are traded between the public aquariums. They just a bunch from Atlantis and awhile ago a big shipment came in from Hawaii.

sailfish · May 26, 2008

Hey Steve don't you think this is a flawed policy. At least in this situation.

Joe

johnr2604 · May 26, 2008

LOL compaired to there setups I would consider my aquarium a trashcan full of SPS.

sshindell · May 26, 2008

I don't know if it exists, but they could not re-introduce it to the wild due to problems with pathogens, and they could not sell it...So other than give it away to other non-profits, they kind of are stuck.

Some aquariums sell/give away used saltwater (Monterrey gets theirs deep from the bay nightly), so maybe there are some loopholes somewhere.

In any case, it will be 2 years or so before Tropical Diver is bursting with corals.

etoh_is_good · May 26, 2008

jeez, do you think that they could actuall "make money" on the coral. the cost of there set up would probably never be recooped if they sold the coral for market or below market prices.

etoh

basscyn · May 26, 2008

I agree that someone from the club should make a formal contact with a rep from tha aquarium about a donation to ARC. You would think that a donation to ARC would be more favorable than just dumping them.

I assume ARC is a non-profit organization. That should make it a taxable donation.

Looks like a no brainer to me...but a club officer will have to make the initial contact.

ericmcj31 · May 26, 2008

etoh_is_good;181848 wrote: jeez, do you think that they could actuall "make money" on the coral. the cost of there set up would probably never be recooped if they sold the coral for market or below market prices.

etoh

No, they couldn't "make" money, but would help recoup. some of their costs--they make $$$ by their admission, dive program, selling food, etc.--I'm not real sure even then they make money; that would be great if they donated some frags to ARC--would be a good conversation piece-"This piece came from GA Aquarium, etc."

sshindell · May 26, 2008

BASSCYN;181851 wrote: I agree that someone from the club should make a formal contact with a rep from tha aquarium about a donation to ARC. You would think that a donation to ARC would be more favorable than just dumping them.

I assume ARC is a non-profit organization. That should make it a taxable donation.

Looks like a no brainer to me...but a club officer will have to make the initial contact.

Again, let me emphasize, there is no coral to give away. They have not dumped anything, nor do they plan to.

Yes ARC is a non-profit organization, but so are they.....

sailfish · May 26, 2008

Thanks for your reply Steve. I only singed you out thinking you might have some first hand knowledge or understanding.
 
Most defiantly they cannot put them back in the ocean. Giving it away would be great.
 
I guess my issue is why could they not sell them. I see why the policy is there to protect animals from being raised for profit while under the guise of being a public Aquarium or Zoo. 
 
At the same time it seems to go against the very idea of what my understanding of aquariums and zoos were designed for.
Which is IMHO research, education, and conservation. 
 
From http://www.aza.org/AboutAZA/index.html">http://www.aza.org/AboutAZA/index.html</a>
 
“Founded in 1924, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the advancement of accredited zoos and aquariums in the areas of animal care, wildlife conservation, education and science. AZA is America's [IMG]http://www.aza.org/Accreditation/AccreditationIntro/index.html">leading accrediting organization for zoos and aquariums</a> and accredits only those institutions that have achieved rigorous standards for animal care, education, wildlife conservation and science.”
I have no proof that the Georgia Aquarium has this policy or that it ever will. I know as a hobbyist that the idea of throwing away coral is such a waist. I think there is a very unique opportunity for the aquariums to have a direct connection with the public and reduce the impact on the environment.
 
I know I would pay $100 for a frag of the coral that started my crazy obsession with reef tanks. It sounds corny but it would warm my heart to know I bought a coral and the money went to a facility that focuses on research and conservation. 
 
I did not post this just about the Georgia Aquarium but the practice as a whole. To be honest I need to do more research about the policy. I do trust the source of my original information but was hoping we could learn more about this together. I do think it would be great if the Georgia Aquarium and the club could work something out. It would be even more exciting if this issue could be addressed on a greater level and include AZA.
 
I guess I a feeling a little grandiose and optimistic that this could have a really unique outcome for all involved. 
 
Joe

sshindell · May 26, 2008

Well, AZA will be having their conference in Atlanta in a few years - ask them!

Seriously, Zoos and aquariums have very strict guidelines about selling or donating animals to research facilities or private collectors, and for good reason. There are plenty of other public aquariums that will benefit from the corals at GAI. And to be honest, nothing they have is that unusual - they look for fast growth more than unusual specimins - we have exposure to similar specimens all the time. Other than the honor of having something from GAI, there are few positives.

jmaneyapanda · May 26, 2008

AZA has a code of ethics that is quite rigid, as mentioned, to prevent zoos from becoming animal dealers to whomever. They ahev VERY strict guidelines as to the destinations of their animals.

I would find it EXTRAORDINARILY UNLIKELY that the policy of any aquarium would be to discard coral fragment. That is the ideal media for calcium reactors, and I'm sure they could/would recycle them if they had surplus. Or offer them to other accredited instituions. Or fo scientific purposes.

Just dont ever expect to see these corals availble to you, even as a donation. This open the "can of worms" that these educational, reserach organizations have just become glorified pet shops. No matter how much money you would offer, it probably wouldnt happen.

Having worked at AZA insitutions for the past 10+ years, I can honestly say that the majority of the public has a grossly misinformed idea of how these organizations are run. How many times have you heard someone say, "Oh that (insert exotic pet name here) has grown too big for me, so I'll just donate it to the zoo/aquarium". Nothing disgusts zoological organizations more than irresponsible pet owners. Furthermore, 999 times out of 1000, they ahve no interets in these animals. Even if they do have the interest, do they have the space?

sailfish · May 26, 2008

Like I said

"I guess I a feeling a little grandiose and optimistic that this could have a really unique outcome for all involved. "

I understand why the policy is there but every policy has it draw back.

I still would love to have piece of the New York and or Georgia aquarium in my home. That a LE coral worth paying for.


I stated that I know all these places swap back and forth. Sooner or later they end up with coral no one need or wants.
I stand by what I heard and trust the source. My jaw about hit the floor when I heard it.

I do like the idea of reactor media. That was good.

Happy reefing.

Joe

jmaneyapanda · May 26, 2008

Bear in mind, the AZA governs aquariums and zoos, and has a uniform policy regarding animal dispositions. How would you feel if you heard the Atlanta Zoo was selling their lions to the family down the street? Or selling their zebras to a game farm? Or selling gorillas to the highest bidder?

The premise of these organizations acquiring and maintaining thses animals is not to gain profit from them. It is to educate, conserve, and entertain the public. as such, the "public market" is not a place for their collection to end up. AZA had at one point a members only area called "animal exchange", which allowed zoos and aquariums to advertise their wants and surplusses. The majority of the animals on these lists were "GTAI"- gratis to approved insitution. Which is free (save freight). As Steve mentioned, there will ALWAYS be organizations to accept these types of situation.

While I certainly am not dsicrediting your claim, I certainly wouldnt get overexcited about it, either. If it did, or does occur, it is a very foolhardy practice, and is a mere minute fraction of a percentage of organizations.

sailfish · May 26, 2008

jmaneyapanda;181903 said:
Bear in mind, the AZA governs aquariums and zoos, and has a uniform policy regarding animal dispositions. How would you feel if you heard the Atlanta Zoo was selling their lions to the family down the street? Or selling their zebras to a game farm? Or selling gorillas to the highest bidder? "

There is a big difference between selling lions and selling corals. Why does everyone have to bring everything to the extreme?

Quote jmanyapanda
"The premise of these organizations acquiring and maintaining thses animals is not to gain profit from them. It is to educate, conserve, and entertain the public. as such, the "public market" is not a place for their collection to end up. AZA had at one point a members only area called "animal exchange", which allowed zoos and aquariums to advertise their wants and surplusses. The majority of the animals on these lists were "GTAI"- gratis to approved insitution. Which is free (save freight). As Steve mentioned, there will ALWAYS be organizations to accept these types of situation."

I stated before what the oganzations purpose are and even copyed it from there site. I think selling corals goes along with there purpose and takes it to a higher level. No I do not believe that these places should be existence just for making a profit but this is a way they could supplement there income.

Sure you can argue that this makes things tricky or complicated but it's pretty logical. I think the line is pretty obvious but so are a lot of things in life that no one changes. Another example of how we as a society make things more complicated then they need to be.

I am sure not all facilities have done this or would do this. I do feel that there is a opportunity here to raise money and actually reach out and touch the community.

O well I will just have to bribe someone at the New York Aquarium and see if I can get my frag.:lol2:

Joe

jmaneyapanda · May 26, 2008

jmaneyapanda;181903 said:
sailfish;181909 wrote:

jmaneyapanda;181903 said:

Bear in mind, the AZA governs aquariums and zoos, and has a uniform policy regarding animal dispositions. How would you feel if you heard the Atlanta Zoo was selling their lions to the family down the street? Or selling their zebras to a game farm? Or selling gorillas to the highest bidder? "

There is a big difference between selling lions and selling corals. Why does everyone have to bring everything to the extreme?

Quote jmanyapanda
"The premise of these organizations acquiring and maintaining thses animals is not to gain profit from them. It is to educate, conserve, and entertain the public. as such, the "public market" is not a place for their collection to end up. AZA had at one point a members only area called "animal exchange", which allowed zoos and aquariums to advertise their wants and surplusses. The majority of the animals on these lists were "GTAI"- gratis to approved insitution. Which is free (save freight). As Steve mentioned, there will ALWAYS be organizations to accept these types of situation."

I stated before what the oganzations purpose are and even copyed it from there site. I think selling corals goes along with there purpose and takes it to a higher level. No I do not believe that these places should be existence just for making a profit but this is a way they could supplement there income.

Sure you can argue that this makes things tricky or complicated but it's pretty logical. I think the line is pretty obvious but so are a lot of things in life that no one changes. Another example of how we as a society make things more complicated then they need to be.

I am sure not all facilities have done this or would do this. I do feel that there is a opportunity here to raise money and actually reach out and touch the community.

O well I will just have to bribe someone at the New York Aquarium and see if I can get my frag.:lol2:

Joe

Click to expand...

Hey Joe- I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative, but I think you missed my point. The AZA creates uniform rules for ALL instituions within their "umbrella". They cant say, "its OK to sell corals, but not OK to sell lions". They say, "all the animals that are acquired or disposed, must not end up in laboratories, game farms, or pet stores (SIC)" I have grossly oversimplified it, but that is the brass tacks of it. ALL institutions associated with AZA must abide by this and verify it through accreditation (which occurs at least every 5 years). At accreditation, you must prove that this has occurred for all dispositions. Its like a giant audit. I know, because I have gone through them, and have another to go through in 2010.

Yes it would make money, but AZA considers all animals within the collection sacred. Who is to say that pandas are more valuable than lions, which are more valuable than frogs, which are more valuable than corals, etc.

I hope you understand, I am not making anything extreme. that is the AZA standards as they are written. You may not agree with these principles, but that is what they are, and NO zoo or aquarium is at fault for following.

Where do you draw the line? Selling corals, what about fish? Selling fish, what about sharks? Selling sharks, what about belugas? Yes, that is absurd, but that is the can of wroms that is opened in doing what you suggest.

sailfish · May 26, 2008

Thanks for the information and the clarification. I thought we were headed into one of these arguments for arguments sake.

I readily admit that it is a can of worms but I feel it is one that can be sorted out. I am sure there are bigger problems and issues of greater importance than some coral being discarded. I do however think that is a waste and a missed opportunity.

I guess if i have to draw line it would be when you have such an excess of something that it has to be killed and used for something else.

Sound more melodramatic than it is. I do want to clarify that the person did not say what they did with them. They could have used the skeletons for the reactor.

To me how can you reach more people have some extra reactor media or sell/donate corals to the public.

This seems like something the Marine Aquarium association could work on.

I feel someone needs to crack down on false advertising, price fixing and collusion in this hobby as well. Now I am just on a rant. I need to go to sleep I will be better tomorrow. LOL

Dang Gum Salt says NSW levels but its not. Skimmer company says 300 gallon tank but really only good for a 150. Tyree LE corals he limits how many can be sold and for how much. How does he get away with it.

Joe

Trash cans full of SPS

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