UV and ich

[skriz]

ichthyoid;871377 wrote: Fair enough, I retract the first sentence.

All else stands.

It was not my intent to appear to disparage Emperor. My exasperation showed, that is all.

To the contrary, I provided similar supportive statements for their purchase.

To suggest that 'it's Emperor or nothing else', is what I perceive to be the issue.

Raj, I would hope that you know I try to be as objective as possible.

My analysis summary was provided for the benefit of the OP, and others, to show that there are many effective options, without having to buy 'the Lamborghini of UV's'.

However,
Your 2nd paragraph is based on ratings which are at best 'suspect', yet taken as gospel.

Using a 336,000 W/cm^2 UV is kind of like driving a 2 penny nail with a 20 lb. sledge hammer, based on current evidence.

When they show me objective data to the contrary, I will reevaluate my position.

Now, I will again say that Emperor arguably builds an excellent device.

Warmest regards,

-Bill

Nothing else performs like the Emperor; that's why!

Not all systems are spec'd based on the 336,000 W/cm^2 rating. BUT, knowing the capabilities of the unit allows you to plan your system appropriately. You're not left guessing and going off of manufacturer's recommended gallonage ratings. No other unit gives you that capability. I spec large systems with a certain formula and use Emperor units; works like a charm.

Aqua-uv is the other major brand that gets a lot of play. I've used tons of them and have found the brand to be absolutely garbage. When comparing aqua-uv and emperor uv's of the same wattage, the tank was more clear and had no ich issues with the emperor than with the aqua-uv. I also take construction into consideration. If you've ever held both brands, it's clear which one is the more substantial unit. Emperor's design philosophy just makes more sense to me too (not that aquauv has ever taken the time to discuss theirs..).

At the end of the day, buy what you feel is right for you and makes sense to you. I don't own either company, so it really makes no difference to me!

 

[grouper therapy]

I have used an Aqua Uv for many years with fantastic success keeping as many as 12 tangs in a 300 gallon system. I have also used an Emperor uv on a large commercial system with fantastic success, There has always been a heated debate between both brands and at times their users. The fact remains that both have had success in their intent. The debate usually takes place between the sole users of one of the two or the manuefactors themselves or their distributors/ retailers. IME not IMO both have served me well.

 

[patrick]

UV will only kill that theronts (free swimmer) that pass thru the UV before they are able to find a fish. If you read how and where the theronts excyst from and when they do it, the chances that they will rise in the water column, make it to the sump, flow thru the UV to be killed....are not high. UV is a might help, won't hurt kind of deal. It is not a cure. If fish are recovering in a system that only has UV....they likley would have recovered anyway. UV will improve water clarity and in some ways....water quality. But it is not a cure for crypt. It is great for water borne bacteria and free cell algae.....but not real great at killing ectoparasites. It is not like the UV radiation makes it into the water column. It only kills that things that flow thru it. Placing the UV feeder pump near the bottom fo the aquarium where the fish tend to inhabit will greatly improve it's parasite killing ability, but all the parasites still need to pass thru it to cure the tank. Ultimately though, it is your money and if you want one.....then there you go. Ozone would likely be more beneficial than UV......but ti has its own issues. Most of them towards you though.

 

[sea atlanta]

The question to ask is: are all bulbs made equal? Are all ballasts made equal? Are all quartz sleeves made equal? All these features will directly affect UV effectiveness.

Ozone is generally ineffective against pathogen control without huge dosing, which we don't operate in reef tank or even fish tanks. It is typically reserved for marine mammal systems.

 

[korkus]

So what do aquarium services do when they get ich? Do they remove the fish and treat? That doesn't seem realistic. How are services dealing with and preventing ich? I can't imagine they do longer quarantine for service customers. I am sure they use meds before they add fish, but they must get ich outbreaks. Do most services require UV?

 

[skriz]

korkus;871596 wrote: So what do aquarium services do when they get ich? Do they remove the fish and treat? That doesn't seem realistic. How are services dealing with and preventing ich? I can't imagine they do longer quarantine for service customers. I am sure they use meds before they add fish, but they must get ich outbreaks. Do most services require UV?

I'm sure every company has different procedures/protocols. Just like quarantine policies.

 

[skriz]

grouper therapy;871571 wrote: I have used an Aqua Uv for many years with fantastic success keeping as many as 12 tangs in a 300 gallon system.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. I would posit that it wasn't necessarily the UV that led to your success; don't discount your reefing and husbandry skills!

grouper therapy;871571 wrote: ..The debate usually takes place between the sole users of one of the two or the manuefactors themselves or their distributors/ retailers.

I've never seen this. I have never met anybody who advocates for Emperor UVs that has used Emperor as their first UV. They're usually experienced with other UVs before stepping up to the Emperor. Case in point: myself.

 

[ichthyoid]

I'm advocating for Aquanetics. I purchased one new on 1986, it still works after thousands of hours and is still all original. The company isn't even still in business, and it still works, good as new.

No one has an Emperor that has done that, they haven't even been in business that long!

Therefore Emperor is PURE CRAP!

 

[ripped tide]

I want to know this:


Why is it that some people that have fish with ick loose their entire tank when other folks have fish that live with ick.

Is ick the problem? Or is it a symptom?

I've asked before, and recieved no answer. Maybe they don't know. That's ok.

But any time someone has ick, many folks seem to "know" the reason, the solution, and the cause. But what about the curveball?

 

[ichthyoid]

That's a great question Dylan.

Firstly, 'ich' isn't appropriate for marine systems, it is a freshwater organism. However, knowing you, I believe you are using it in a generic sense. So,..

I think some people have oodinium outbreaks, some cryptocaryon and some brooklynella.

The relative virulence, and subsequent kill rate, differs greatly. Perhaps an order of magnitude, or more.

There is considerable evidence that this is the case.

Similar to the difference between having the flu, having acute pancreatitis and having stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

 

[ripped tide]

ichthyoid;871657 wrote: That's a great question Dylan.

Firstly, 'ich' isn't appropriate for marine systems, it is a freshwater organism. However, knowing you, I believe you are using it in a generic sense. So,..

I think some people have oodinium outbreaks, some cryptocaryon and some brooklynella.

The relative virulence, and subsequent kill rate, differs greatly. Perhaps an order of magnitude, or more.

There is considerable evidence that this is the case.

Similar to the difference between having the flu, having acute pancreatitis and having stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

I'll throw myself under the bus.

My 210 has had "ich"(yeah, I was a freshwater guy before saltwater, and the habit of referring to it as ich is just in my head) for over a year. That being said, I haven't lost a fish in that tank since feb 2012. I DO have 2 UVs(one 40w emperor and one 40w lifegaurd).

I have added fish since then(including most of the fish from my 93 when I sold it) and some have showed very little symptoms, and some showed none. However, they have always shown little response to the parasite and appear to continue doing what fish do: swim, eat. Swim, eat.

The fish that show ich the worse are 2 tangs. A blue regal and the prionurus punctatus.


I wonder if the uv keeps the ich at bay so that it doesn't become lethal.

 

[ichthyoid]

The list of diseases above isn't intended to be either complete or exclusive.

It's just an example...

There are many varieties of parasite and undoubtedly compound infections, involving more than one type organism are not only possible, but likely. They are after all, opportunistic pathogens.

 

[ichthyoid]

Short answer, yes. I agree that the uv keeps them at bay.

Statistically, you can never treat all of the water, within the life cycle of a given organism, in a recirculating system. It's the half, of a half, of a half thing. You never get to zero.

As I mentioned before. Uv does not do a good job of eliminating infections. It's much better at preventing them (that's 27 years of observation talking here). Just my opinion too. I don't have data to support that position.

 

[ripped tide]

I guess the true test, that which I am not willing to do, would be turn off the UVs and wait to see what happens.

For the record, I moved the emperor over only a month ago. The lifegaurd had been the only UV running the tank since I had gotten the tank in the early summer of '11

 

[rdnelson]

Ripped Tide;871660 wrote: I'll throw myself under the bus.

My 210 has had "ich"(yeah, I was a freshwater guy before saltwater, and the habit of referring to it as ich is just in my head) for over a year. That being said, I haven't lost a fish in that tank since feb 2012. I DO have 2 UVs(one 40w emperor and one 40w lifegaurd).

I have added fish since then(including most of the fish from my 93 when I sold it) and some have showed very little symptoms, and some showed none. However, they have always shown little response to the parasite and appear to continue doing what fish do: swim, eat. Swim, eat.

The fish that show ich the worse are 2 tangs. A blue regal and the prionurus punctatus.


I wonder if the uv keeps the ich at bay so that it doesn't become lethal.

Someone once told me (and I agree with that someone. You may know him) that they believed that most tanks will have an outbreak at sometime or another.

If a fish is heathy, strong and has a good immune system they can fight it off. If they have never been exposed the immune system is not as developed. If they have been through lots of treatments and meds the immune system is not as strong. All this makes sense to me in the context of things like the flu and colds when it comes to me.

I never take any medications. I catch a small cold a couple times a year and get the flu every 10 years +/- I never take anything but let my body fight it off. I believe that helps me prevent it from happening more often and helps prevent a bad case.

I have taken this approach with my fish. In the past I lost several when a breakout occurs but now I plan for it. If I add any fish, I know my 3 tangs will have a mild breakout. I boost the immune system with heavy feedings and medicate for a short time with metro. Now all three seem to fight it off pretty easy. It is like a cold to them.

And by the way, I run no UV.

Just my $1.98.



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[grouper therapy]

Skriz;871646 wrote: Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. I would posit that it wasn't necessarily the UV that led to your success; don't discount your reefing and husbandry skills!



I've never seen this. I have never met anybody who advocates for Emperor UVs that has used Emperor as their first UV. They're usually experienced with other UVs before stepping up to the Emperor. Case in point: myself.

Just blind luck.:yes: Actually my experience should be discounted since I never had ich outbreak in my system.

 

[acroholic]

I have not had a serious ich outbreak since I got into reefing. I have had plenty of times when I introduce a fish, then in the next day or two my wrasses or tangs seem to have it for a day or so, then it disappears. That is it.

I only added a UV when I set up my 465 gallon. I figured with the monetary investment in fish I would end up with, it wouldn't hurt to have some preventative measures in place.

My guess is that it is always in the system, but healthy fish can beat it off, and the UV keeps it in check in the free swimming stage.