What are your tactics for...

[snowmansnow]

keeping water parameters steady?
I've often said we don't really keep corals, we keep water haha, and it really is true. As reef keepers our focus should be on the environment the animals live in. Corals have survived on the earth a lot longer than humans, and will be here long after we're all gone. I'm reminded of the Jurassic Park quote, "life always finds a way". However, the individual animals we keep will perish in the short term if the environment we provide isn't suitable.
In short ,we keep a water column with certain variables and parameters. If that water column is suitable and constant the corals we place in it WILL thrive (outside of gaining a diseased animal in the first place).

So, what do you do to keep your parameters rock steady year after year after year?

I'm looking for upgrade ideas really, and figure stability is one of the biggest upgrades I can make. I'm asking because I know there are reefers here who are a LOT more experienced than I am.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Adam]

Very interesting topic. With only a few months under my belt I'm looking forward to seeing responses from those with years of experience.

All I have to offer is that my approach to getting started was with the best water I could. Like you said we're keeping water. Before I even got the stand in place I got the my water filtration, storage and mixing station installed.

 

[myreefclub0070]

So true on the keeping water thing, we know a lot lot more about saltwater than we know about coral or even fish so your best bet is to keep a tank of stable water and hopefully everything would be fine.
Ever had a coral die and your still scratching your head weeks later trying to figure out what the heck went wrong, well you can still do a few water test and make sure your water is fine but what can you do with the coral to find out what happened.
With all the equipment and products available on the market these days, you can keep water pretty pristine and everyone in the tank should be happy.
following alone cause this is a forever learning hobby.

 

[snowmansnow]

I think a good place to start is "don't panic"
I've gotten in trouble more than once because something I tested was out of whack.. nothing was dying, but something was out of whack... I hastily "fixed things" then... well then things die haha

 

[bulkrate]

Not a veteran by a long shot, but I'll second you on the "don't panic" mantra. Quick changes to a single parameter or trace element seem to invariably replace one problem with another.

With a caveat - running a salt mix that reliably mixes up reasonably close to the parameters you're seeking to maintain is really important. Otherwise trying to address a problem that can be solved by "dilution" (high nitrates, phosphates, ammonia spike or staving off a tank crash due to some contaminant) is made all the more complex by having to fine tune each batch.

Not wanting to turn this into a "Which Salt is Best thread" - just that in running smaller tanks over the past few years it's saved my bacon more than once.

 

[snowmansnow]

BulkRate;1095935 wrote: Not a veteran by a long shot, but I'll second you on the "don't panic" mantra. Quick changes to a single parameter or trace element seem to invariably replace one problem with another.

With a caveat - running a salt mix that reliably mixes up reasonably close to the parameters you're seeking to maintain is really important. Otherwise trying to address a problem that can be solved by "dilution" (high nitrates, phosphates, ammonia spike or staving off a tank crash due to some contaminant) is made all the more complex by having to fine tune each batch.

Not wanting to turn this into a "Which Salt is Best thread" - just that in running smaller tanks over the past few years it's saved my bacon more than once.

nope, i totally agree. if you're trying to keep an alk of 8-8.5 and your salt mix mixes at 11 you'll have a problem.

 

[danh]

It might be better to get a salt that mixes closer to 8, but a 10% water change at 11 isn't going to do much at all to your tank. I don't see that causing any problem.

 

[snowmansnow]

Danh;1095967 wrote: It might be better to get a salt that mixes closer to 8, but a 10% water change at 11 isn't going to do much at all to your tank. I don't see that causing any problem.

Why ? If the mix is nearly the same price and the process is the same why not get exactly what you want?
IMO it's a fluctuating parameter that doesn't need to fluctuate .
Spikes do happen eventually with everyone, so alk is going to be an issue eventually for some reason, but again.... If s mix has what you want then that's one fluctuation that can be avoided.

And I haven't tested this, but a 10 % change CAN make a BIG difference.

Let's say an sps keeper is keeping a tank at 7.5 and he adds water with 12 alk.
Let's say his tank is 10g.
Bam. Alk spike. Still in range? Yes, but a spike that didn't need to happen.



So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[danh]

10% is 10% no matter how big the tank is. I can show you the math again but it's on the site already from when I did it and Marlon I think corrected me. Even with the correction, 10% water changes on a difference like that. A 10% water change doesn't cause a SPIKE. It causes an increase, but not a spike. It's the same idea with nutrient export and 10% water changes. You've got 10ppm of nitrate in your water, you do a 10% water change with water that has 0ppm and you result with 9ppm nitrate. That's a change, not a sharp decrease.

Like I said, I agree that it's better to work with salt closer to your tank's alk but with 10% water changes, you're not going to spike anything.

 

[snowmansnow]

To me a spike is defined as any sudden change. A spike is determined by time interval.
Then again a point or half point change may be acceptable to some, heck a 2 point change may be acceptable to some as long as it falls within accepted parameters, but there are some reefers out there who don't want to deal with that weekly bounce.
I suppose it has to do with what someone deems "good enough".


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[snowmansnow]

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[danh]

It's not a 2 point change is what I'm saying.

7.5 X .9 (90% left after a 10% water change) + 12 X .1 (the 10% water change) = 6.75+1.2 = 7.95 ending alkalinity.

That's not a 2 point change. That's 4 tenths of a point. I know that kind of fluctuation could easily be lost with my red sea test. Maybe a Hanna can test it better.

 

[snowmansnow]

SnowManSnow;1095981 wrote: To me a spike is defined as any sudden change. A spike is determined by time interval.
Then again a point or half point change may be acceptable to some, heck a 2 point change may be acceptable to some as long as it falls within accepted parameters, but there are some reefers out there who don't want to deal with that weekly bounce.
I suppose it has to do with what someone deems "good enough".


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Ok I thought about this a little wrong.
There are 2 issues at play for 2 reefers. For the reefer who chases a number and has an increase: for him he is going to have to wait until the coral uptake brings his number back where he wants it and then begin dosing again.
For the 2nd reefer who has his tank dialed in (whether using a ca reactor efficiently or dosing 2 part) he will need to suspend dosing until the number falls back into line, or his tank alk will increase with each water change because he has learned how to maintain levels over time based on the growing uptake by his animals.
Also consider this: if someone does a weekly water change and the alk moves up and then back down (which it shouldn't if the tank is dialed in) then over the maturation / growing process of 5 years (IMO about what it takes to start to see a serious sps tank given big colonies weren't purchased at the start) there will be 260 alk bumps, even though they were only one point.
IMO alk has not been kept steady in this case.



So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[danh]

There must also be a bump with user a doser or a reactor. What is that bump? You can do the math the same way to see if it is substantial compared to the water change math. Those drops of two part are way more than 12 alk. I don't know what that math looks like but I'll do it if you want me to.

 

[snowmansnow]

Danh;1095986 wrote: There must also be a bump with user a doser or a reactor. What is that bump? You can do the math the same way to see if it is substantial compared to the water change math. Those drops of two part are way more than 12 alk. I don't know what that math looks like but I'll do it if you want me to.

There's no bump if your salt is 8.5 and you're maintaining a 8.5 alk w a reactor.

Or if you're maintaining with 2 part throughout the day... W a doser. There shouldn't be a change .

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[danh]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how those two things are used. A doser doses a measured amount periodically right? If that's the case, there WILL be a bump. It's consumed, then replaced with another dose. It may be less than 4 tenths of a point, but there is a bump.

How does an alk reactor work?

 

[snowmansnow]

Well the idea is for parameters to be where you need them, and then tune your reactor to maintain that level at the same rate as they are depleted.
If a doser is capable of very small doses then the doses can be spread out over the day to do the same thing a carx does.
What you want to avoid with a doser or manually dosing 2 part is dosing once a week or some crazy spread out interval. THEN yes you get a bump


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Adam]

Danh;1095989 wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding how those two things are used. A doser doses a measured amount periodically right? If that's the case, there WILL be a bump. It's consumed, then replaced with another dose. It may be less than 4 tenths of a point, but there is a bump.

How does an alk reactor work?

Like the way this thread started, we're keeping water. We want to keep any and all fluctuations to a minimum. As you and I are just starting we're still trying to find that balance. It doesn't matter how we replace the parameters that are being used we want to do it as evenly and over time as we can. As we learn our system and how it uses these things we also learn how what we add changes those parameters. As we build more experience we will learn how to minimize the large fluctuations. It doesn't matter how we add them. 2-part by hand, a doser, Kalk in the ATO, a Calcium reactor... The goal is to get your numbers where you want them and keep them there. Obviously dosing by hand would be the hardest, if not impossible, to manage unless you were retired and even then you have to sleep sometime. With mechanical dosing no matter the method the object is to be constantly be replacing what is being used. In doing so there is no real bounce in parameters. There will be fluctuations but they will happen over time, days & weeks not minutes & hours. As those fluctuations occur we will adjust in the same fashion, over time.

 

[schwaggs]

I keep temperature in tight control with an Apex and several heaters and a chiller. Typically, I don't see more that .5 degree swing all day.

I keep pH as steady as possible by only dosing Kalk when the lights are off and running my refugium at an opposite light cycle to the main tank. This can keep pH within .05 when everything is running well.

I keep Calcium and Alk steady using a CA reactor. Once dialed in, week to week fluctuations are nil.

 

[danh]

You dose kalk AND you have a CA reactor?

I like the idea of only dosing kalk when the lights are off for ph reasons, but I would think that would cause bumps in alk at least. I guess I don't understand how you implement both.