What is this on my foxface?

[munchkin]

I had the same problem when I added a blue hippo to my tank. I had him in qt for 2 weeks and he looked good. I added him in and he and the foxface got ick. He survived, the tang didn't. I just soaked their food in garlic and didnt do anything to add to their stress.
I haven't added another fish to the tank for over 6 months. I added a mandrain the other day but I've read they can't get ick because of their "skin". So far everyone looks healthy.

 

[jennm]

I also believe that it can pop up in any tank, despite the science to the contrary. I've seen it happen too many times, even after the hobbyist takes every precaution.

Something I'd suggest that many folks don't think about... test your tank for stray voltage with a multi meter. I'm working with a client with a similar problem, and I loaned out my tester, and lo and behold - they had 30+ volts in their tank... traced back to heaters. Heaters are the #1 culprit - although other equipment can cause voltage too. There's a particular brand of heater that I've seen it happen with more so than most others - and this client had brand new heaters, which were that particular brand

They have just finished up quarantine and medication and were nervous about replacing the fish back in the main tank - I suggested the voltage test and we found the problem.

A grounding probe will help with this but it's no substitute for repairing or replacing faulty equipment.

Might be worth investigating further. It won't remedy the current outbreak (pardon the pun) but it may prevent future outbreaks and help fight the current one at the source.

Jenn

 

[hooked on salt]

I don't have a heater in the system. Just a couple of tunze's. Do you just put the leads into the water to test for voltage?

 

[jennm]

Ground the black wire in the grounding outlet of a wall socket. Place the red wire in the water. Meters vary - mine I set to 200 volts. It will then measure 00.0 (higher setting = less sensitivity). IME it's normal to find a volt or two - but if I find anything more than 4 or 5 volts, I'm unplugging everything and plugging it back in to find out what is causing the spike.

Sometimes we find nothing - but it's surprising how often we do find voltage. It isn't necessarily a heater, but it's the usual culprit. Any electrical device can cause it.

I've even had two instances where the lights and/or timer were the cause and somehow the voltage was finding its way back into the tank. Years ago, Lifestudent had a similar issue - his was the first time we found voltage (after months of head-scratching wondering why his fish kept getting sick in the display despite quarantine/medication/fallow display etc.) - it was his light fixture.

Another client had all new equipment but an old light timer - and that was the culprit. I can't rightly explain how a piece of equipment that didn't come in contact with the water, managed to cast voltage into the water, but the meter showed it - and in both instances, once the faulty equipment was replaced or removed, the problem subsided.

At the very least if you find no voltage, you can rule that out as a possible cause, and go forward from there.

Jenn

 

[hooked on salt]

Hmmm...I'll have to check into that. Thanks.

 

[jennm]

YW

Let us know your findings.

Jenn

 

[grouper therapy]

munchkin;328437 wrote: I had the same problem when I added a blue hippo to my tank. I had him in qt for 2 weeks and he looked good. I added him in and he and the foxface got ick. He survived, the tang didn't. I just soaked their food in garlic and didnt do anything to add to their stress.
I haven't added another fish to the tank for over 6 months. I added a mandrain the other day but I've read they can't get ick because of their "skin". So far everyone looks healthy.

Did you treat while in qt?

 

[grouper therapy]

JennM;328446 wrote: I<u> also believe that it can pop up in any tank</u></em>, despite the science to the contrary. I've seen it happen too many times, even after the hobbyist takes every precaution.

Something I'd suggest that many folks don't think about... test your tank for stray voltage with a multi meter. I'm working with a client with a similar problem, and I loaned out my tester, and lo and behold - they had 30+ volts in their tank... traced back to heaters. Heaters are the #1 culprit - although other equipment can cause voltage too. There's a particular brand of heater that I've seen it happen with more so than most others - and this client had brand new heaters, which were that particular brand

They have just finished up quarantine and medication and were nervous about replacing the fish back in the main tank - I suggested the voltage test and we found the problem.

A grounding probe will help with this but it's no substitute for repairing or replacing faulty equipment.

Might be worth investigating further. It won't remedy the current outbreak (pardon the pun) but it may prevent future outbreaks and help fight the current one at the source.

Jenn

I am trying to understand how a living organism can just pop up. Are you suggesting that it lies dormant in wait for a host?

 

[jennm]

Yes, exactly. Dormant in possibly the substrate. I've seen plenty of people have it occur in their tank, remove all the fish, treat them with copper/hyposalinity and a variety of other protocols, leave the display fishless for up to 8 weeks, keep the fish quarantined for weeks after the last symptom disappears - only to have the display infested again shortly after re-introducing the treated fish.

While it flies in the face of the science that supports the fallow tank notion that it should all have died off, it can still come back. The only possible explanation is that it goes dormant or something in the absence of a host - then all it takes is something to stress the fish and they become vulnerable again.

With similar thinking, it's possibly present in every tank - but low stress, healthy immune systems, good feeding and water quality seems to help keep it at bay.

I've had this discussion many times and been told by those more learned than myself that it's impossible - and I'm not a scientist so I can't give scientific evidence to say otherwise, but I know what I've witnessed. So while it's anecdotal - since I've seen it happen more than once, there has to either be something that hobbyists have overlooked, or my amateur "theory" must have at least a bit of merit.

Jenn

 

[stacy22]

Many protozoans have a dual stage life cycle. There is a trophozoite stage that is the free-living active stage. Then there is the cystic stage that lies dormant. I order a dry mix of protists for a microbiology lab activity. The stuff comes completely DRY</em>. It is soil, wheat straw, and protist cysts. Sometimes this dry mix sits in a drawer in my classroom for a year before it's even used. After hydrating the mixture ,it is amazing how much life there is in it. Cysts are VERY protective stages that serve to give the protozoan an opportunity to continue its life when environmental conditions are better.

It is absolutely possible for a "fallow" tank to still harbor cysts of microorganisms. This is why, as Jenn points out, we see re-infections after proper QT and Rx treatment. Nature wins again.

 

[smoothie]

Not 100% sure, but can't ich still get in a mandarin's gills even though it won't be noticed on the skin?
Jenn- do you think the lighting addition may have caused a temp swing or just freaked them out?

 

[grouper therapy]

I see your point Jenn. That leads me to wonder(Trying to think outside the box hard for me to do) if our qt practices and treatment methods are not as conclusive as we think and that maybe the visual absents of symptons is not adequate for reintroduction of the fish. Perhaps in the gills etc.

 

[stacy22]

Smoothie;328524 wrote: Not 100% sure, but can't ich still get in a mandarin's gills even though it won't be noticed on the skin?
Jenn- do you think the lighting addition may have caused a temp swing or just freaked them out?

Mandarins can still get ich. They may not be as likely to get it as other fish but they certainly are not immune.

Perhaps we should get an ARC crew to come up with an "Ich vaccine". We could make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

 

[ralph atl]

grouper therapy;328308 wrote: There has been a number of debates over whether you can keep it out of a tank or not. Like letting a tank set dormant ( free from a host) for 4-6 weeks and the ich will run thru a life cycle and them perish without a host. I believe that to be the case but alot of people have tried it and failed so then they say it doesn't work. Most of them forget about the rock or rubble that the coral was attached to and they introduced into the system without quarantine could have the ich attached. Then comes that infamous blanket statement <u>Ich is always in any tank. </u></em>I'm not going to say they are wrong but we all should consider the possibilty that they could be.

this is very true.

 

[ralph atl]

It cannot just pop up in any tank. If the tank has not had any hosts for say 8 weeks, then the reinfection came from the treated fish. Obviously, they weren't 100% cured. It's impossible to see them on the gills and so forth.

 

[ralph atl]

on the home page, you can click on "ich" in the tag box for a bunch of articles & threads.

 

[jennm]

I think sometimes we take a false sense of security in our protocols. Many people feel that a UV will fix it all - while it will help, it's not a cure. A UV can only kill the free-swimming stage of the parasite. Once it's on the fish, it's too late. Then there's another round of cysts, tomonts etc., and IF the UV catches them while in the free swimming stage before they attach to a fish, that helps reduce the numbers - but it can't possibly get them all.

Like I said - popular scientific thinking is that it is possible to get rid of it completely but IMO as long as there's a fish in the tank, regardless of the protocols followed, it's possible for a re-infestation to occur.

Good husbandry practices are the best defense, and a few people never ever have a problem with it, but I'd venture to say that most folks encounter it sooner or later.

Jenn

 

[grouper therapy]

JennM;328546 wrote: I think sometimes we take a false sense of security in our protocols. Many people feel that a UV will fix it all - while it will help, it's not a cure. A UV can only kill the free-swimming stage of the parasite. Once it's on the fish, it's too late. Then there's another round of cysts, tomonts etc., and IF the UV catches them while in the free swimming stage before they attach to a fish, that helps reduce the numbers - but it can't possibly get them all.

Like I said - popular scientific thinking is that it is possible to get rid of it completely but IMO as long as there's a fish in the tank, regardless of the protocols followed, it's possible for a re-infestation to occur.

Good husbandry practices are the best defense, and a few people never ever have a problem with it, but I'd venture to say that most folks encounter it sooner or later.

Jenn

I refuse to accept that it has to always be there( not that it is or is not). With outward thinking and more understanding, perhaps we on the hobbyist level may come up with more than opinions and gain some facts on the subject.
I agree with Jenn about false feelings of security with an uv. I run two 57 watt on my system and They seem to help with the amount that appears on the fish. But to say they cure ich would be a total inaccurate statement. If that were the case then the ich would never had appeared in the tank to begin with.

 

[jennm]

Well, we can run sterile tanks with just fish, no live rock and no substrate and keep hypo and copper

Kind of a boring option to me.

Jenn

 

[hooked on salt]

I wonder if piping in elevator music would help calm them? ;-)