What's the obsession w raising nutrients?????

[snowmansnow]

Am I crazy or am I seeing a LOT of posts on the boards about reefers attempting to RAISE their NO3 and PO4?

I've been around about a decade, and not too long ago such a post would have been scoffed....

I understand the pros and cons of running a ULNS, but it just looks like noobs (no offense) chasing some kind of magic number.

So what's going on here? Why is everyone's water all of a sudden too clean? Did water treatment plants just get a LOT BETTER or something?



So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[davidinga]

Perhaps they are running primarily sps tanks with such a low biolad that the sps tend to stay pale and they just want some deeper colors?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[jennm]

Latest fad...

In all my years in the trade, I encountered very few people with water that was 'too clean'. I did encounter a few who over-tinkered and over-stressed and had very clean water and trouble keeping some corals, but even that I wouldn't attribute to 'too clean'... more like too manipulated.

Most people have water that is plenty dirty without adding to it.

Jenn

 

[snowmansnow]

JennM;1057068 wrote: Latest fad...

In all my years in the trade, I encountered very few people with water that was 'too clean'. I did encounter a few who over-tinkered and over-stressed and had very clean water and trouble keeping some corals, but even that I wouldn't attribute to 'too clean'... more like too manipulated.

Most people have water that is plenty dirty without adding to it.

Jenn

Just what I'm thinking..... I mean if clean water was the biggest problem we wouldn't be seeing folks struggle w keeping stuff alive.

And from the pics I'm seeing these aren't sps tanks that have head sized colonies stripping the water of everything.....


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[snowmansnow]

Ahhhhh.... Perhaps someone should market water that is dirty.

You heard it here folks!
Water w NO3 and PO4 added!


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[lsu_fishfan]

SnowManSnow;1057073 wrote: Ahhhhh.... Perhaps someone should market water that is dirty.

You heard it here folks!
Water w NO3 and PO4 added!


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Thanks for the free advertising
5 gallons of dirty water for $10 lol

Really, this hobby is an art and there are numerous ways to be successful.

 

[marquiseo]

It is because husbandry and equipment in this hobby has improved over the years. Skimmers are now more efficient, man-made rock has been provided that is more porous than some liverock from the ocean, and new or improved techniques that have been provided to reduce nutrients. In overall, the knowledge base about this hobby has been improved. It has improved so much that low nutrient levels are the new problems. Not every hobbyist will have this problem but most whom have embraced the new technique will (zeovit, Red Sea Program, Carbon Dosing). Also, experimentation has provided evidence that colors in corals depend on the nutrient levels ie darker colors = a certain range of nutrients; lighter colors = little to no nutrients.

It is not a fad, it is just an advancement in our hobby. Just like we advanced from undergravel filters but there are some who still think it is the most effective filtration.

 

[snowmansnow]

I don't doubt that equipment is better. I've HAD that equipment, and I know that most people are NOT running top of the line stuff that is over skimming and stripping the water of everything.

The majority of reefers are running something in the reef octopus range, and using questionable husbandry, thus leading to poorly colored sticks.

I don't know.... Didn't mean to offend folks, but I just don't think overly clean water is an epidemic.


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[jvb89]

Are you referring to adding potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate in order color up sps?

 

[marquiseo]

SnowManSnow;1057087 wrote: I don't doubt that equipment is better. I've HAD that equipment, and I know that most people are NOT running top of the line stuff that is over skimming and stripping the water of everything.

The majority of reefers are running something in the reef octopus range, and using questionable husbandry, thus leading to poorly colored sticks.

I don't know.... Didn't mean to offend folks, but I just don't think overly clean water is an epidemic.


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

I wouldn't say Reef Octopus is the best and the newest innovation skimmer out there. There are a lot of variables that can make another reefer's tank an ULNS and yours not. Some reefers like the pale look of SPS and others do not. New scientific data and experimentation has caused this sudden buzz among reefers for the best coloration which is what reefers have been doing from the beginning. It was just determined that controlling nutrients in a certain range will give you the deep coloration that every reefer wants in their tanks.

I, also, think you misinterpreted the situation with the reefers in the forums; it is not the nitrate dosing that is causing issue but the fact that they are getting consistent undetectable readings no matter if it is being consumed by the algae in their tanks or from the system being a true ULNS. Either way the corals need nutrients or they will perish.

BLUF: It is a controlled nutrient technique to reduce algae and provide the right amount of nutrients for the best coloration and growth.

 

[jvb89]

Adam from Battle corals did a nice write up on nutrients and sps by using controlled nitrate dosing

 

[ralph atl]

MarquiseO;1057085 wrote: It is because husbandry and equipment in this hobby has improved over the years. Skimmers are now more efficient, man-made rock has been provided that is more porous than some liverock from the ocean, and new or improved techniques that have been provided to reduce nutrients. In overall, the knowledge base about this hobby has been improved. It has improved so much that low nutrient levels are the new problems. Not every hobbyist will have this problem but most whom have embraced the new technique will (zeovit, Red Sea Program, Carbon Dosing). Also, experimentation has provided evidence that colors in corals depend on the nutrient levels ie darker colors = a certain range of nutrients; lighter colors = little to no nutrients.

It is not a fad, it is just an advancement in our hobby. Just like we advanced from undergravel filters but there are some who still think it is the most effective filtration.

To the contrary...there are more lazy morons that try to ride the "I haven't changed my water in 6 months". There are more naive hobbiests because they are riding an entire company "line of product" as opposed to what's needed. There are more hobbiests with no finances to support a reef tank properly. There are more naive individuals getting responses from newbies from Facebook Group posts. There has BEEN no major improvement in any area or reefing that I know of. I have been carbon dosing since 2006. A skimmer removes almost nothing in nutrients when you compare to carbon dosing, denitrator, GFO, etc...

 

[genesis]

I agree with Marquoise. I'm one to say that I struggle in my tank with not having enough nutrients. I have a 140 mixed reef with 10 fish. For months I've been lacking color and having pale corals. After talking with others and testing my tank, I found that that I am nutrient stripped. My fish bioload is undersize, I have a very efficient skimmer that I wet skim, a refugium with 3 different algaes, a large clam (they consumes nitrates as well), carbon/gfo reactor. I don't think it's a fad it's just in some cases people issues are reversed. While the norm is getting nutrients low in some cases that goal has been accomplished and hit rock bottom with it. Corals need some nutrients and how they go about adding them will very. Just think how much better it is knowing that you will only have as much nutrients as what you add. Sounds like the sweet spot to me

 

[grouper therapy]

I never had a uln issue with all the fish I have. But I will say this, it seems that most everyone that has ULN systems with pale sps also run LED.

 

[marquiseo]

Ralph ATL;1057099 wrote: To the contrary...there are more lazy morons that try to ride the "I haven't changed my water in 6 months". There are more naive hobbiests because they are riding an entire company "line of product" as opposed to what's needed. There are more hobbiests with no finances to support a reef tank properly. There are more naive individuals getting responses from newbies from Facebook Group posts. There has BEEN no major improvement in any area or reefing that I know of. I have been carbon dosing since 2006. A skimmer removes almost nothing in nutrients when you compare to carbon dosing, denitrator, GFO, etc...

Because a person doesn't do WC doesn't declare them to be lazy; their system can just simply do it and other systems can't do to many variable suchs as automation, nutrient levels, and so on. Using an entire company's line of product doesn't make the person naive.

Most companies rebrand the same methods which means it is just easier for the hobbyist to get everything at a one-stop-shop instead of different retailers.

As for finances, you don't have to pay thousands of dollars to have a reef tank. There are plenty of thriving low budget reef tanks on Nano-reef that can prove you wrong. As for the selection of corals, that is solely of the reefers taste and where you may disagree that the reefer with the low budget tank isn't a "true reefer".


Of course there is a lot of misinformation being scattered around but there is also a lot of documented data and published scientific studies that can debunk most of the incorrect information. To simply call someone a noobie, you have to know that they are inexperienced in this hobby and lack the knowledge for success. Age doesn't equal wisdom. A person can do something wrong their whole life and be set straight years later. I have read lots of threads where people claim to be reefing gurus but have had to restart their tanks several times due to numerous reasons or have 4+ years old tank that is still having catastrophic algae issues, numerous fish deaths, and so on.


There has been improvements and it has been published on several sites such as Reefbuilders and in magazines like Coral Magazine. Even better, well known chemists like Randy Holmes-Farley, devote their time daily to educate hobbyists and help them to better this hobby through experimentation. The information is there.

Wouldn't saying skimmers are nothing in comparison to Carbon dosing be a little naive? Skimmers and carbon dosing are essential to each other.

I will just leave it at that. Happy Reefing!

 

[ralph atl]

MarquiseO;1057107 wrote: Because a person doesn't do WC doesn't declare them to be lazy; their system can just simply do it and other systems can't do to many variable suchs as automation, nutrient levels, and so on. Using an entire company's line of product doesn't make the person naive.

Most companies rebrand the same methods which means it is just easier for the hobbyist to get everything at a one-stop-shop instead of different retailers.

As for finances, you don't have to pay thousands of dollars to have a reef tank. There are plenty of thriving low budget reef tanks on Nano-reef that can prove you wrong. As for the selection of corals, that is solely of the reefers taste and where you may disagree that the reefer with the low budget tank isn't a "true reefer".


Of course there is a lot of misinformation being scattered around but there is also a lot of documented data and published scientific studies that can debunk most of the incorrect information. To simply call someone a noobie, you have to know that they are inexperienced in this hobby and lack the knowledge for success. Age doesn't equal wisdom. A person can do something wrong their whole life and be set straight years later. I have read lots of threads where people claim to be reefing gurus but have had to restart their tanks several times due to numerous reasons or have 4+ years old tank that is still having catastrophic algae issues, numerous fish deaths, and so on.


There has been improvements and it has been published on several sites such as Reefbuilders and in magazines like Coral Magazine. Even better, well known chemists like Randy Holmes-Farley, devote their time daily to educate hobbyists and help them to better this hobby through experimentation. The information is there.

Wouldn't saying skimmers are nothing in comparison to Carbon dosing be a little naive? Skimmers and carbon dosing are essential to each other.

I will just leave it at that. Happy Reefing!

I was responding anecdotally to current trends, duh!

not only have I read everything you have quoted, I am personal friends with them including the writers of Coral, lol

 

[snowmansnow]

Ok. Just to set things strait... In calling someone a noob in my op I meant someone who is new to the hobby. You can't help being a noob any more than you can help being a baby.

I acknowledge that new developments are being made in both husbandry and equipment, and it is making things more accessible. It is happening with everything from lighting to filtration, and as with most commercial things, there are definitely some take aways.

Yes corals need nutrients, but right now there is just a big emphasis on that. 6 years ago most reefers would have argued all you need is great lighting and water quality, despite corals being a wall of mouths.

I'm learning myself, too. With all the discourse on NO3 and PO4 there are discussions on how it is relating to alk, and even how those parameters dictate how effective certain lighting is.

If anything it all illustrates how related everything actually is, and it's exciting to see the hobby making strides to understand coral ecology.

It's funny, though, when one emphasizes one aspect of the cycle it tends to over-manipulate things and things are never quite right. (I agree with Jen's statement on that).

Is it a fad or not? Well, I think the focus on it may be a fad. I think we aren't too far from just "handling" a lot of reefing issues with a few simple steps, and I can't wait for that day with automation and such I can see how water parameter could be constantly monitored and things can be adjusted without the individual even knowing. Is that a good thing? I don't know. Will it help the survivability of our animals? Probably so.

That being said, there are always those who want to know "why", and many times it is those people who press us to greater things.


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[marquiseo]

SnowManSnow;1057135 wrote:
I acknowledge that new developments are being made in both husbandry and equipment, and it is making things more accessible. It is happening with everything from lighting to filtration, and as with most commercial things, there are definitely some take aways. <span style="color: Red">Because of this advancement in technology, there is no need to use old practices such as oversizing skimmers. Skimmers, for example, have become more efficient and some cases too efficient. Man-made live rock and media is now housing more bacteria than live rock from the ocean due to exceptional porosity which in turn reduces more nutrients greatly ie MarinePur Media blocks.
</span>
Yes corals need nutrients, but right now there is just a big emphasis on that. 6 years ago most reefers would have argued all you need is great lighting and water quality, despite corals being a wall of mouths. <span style="color: red">There is an emphasis because now is a time for enlightenment in that area. That is the big area of focus at this point and time. It has happened with every area of this hobby for the last decade which have led to advancements in this hobby. This does not make it a fad. A lot of hobbyist wondered why their corals were not producing the colors they should have gotten and this was the cause for some of them. 6 years ago reefer may have said that but look how easily a loss was an acceptable part of the hobby. Now hobbyist are trying to reach the optimal environment for their corals.</span>

It's funny, though, when one emphasizes one aspect of the cycle it tends to over-manipulate things and things are never quite right. (I agree with Jen's statement on that).
<span style="color: red">It is just simple experimentation. Everything in this hobby go hand and hand. True there are some that over do and there are those that bring forth innovation. Then again it is still up the hobbyist to decide to use the information. You could simply not change and continue to think out-dated information is the bible for this hobby. Even well known reefers like Sanjay and Albert are taking to the new discoveries of this hobby.</span>

in red

 

[grouper therapy]

Where is the data showing skimmers are more efficient. Has someone developed a new method of measuring the removal of dissolved solids?

 

[marquiseo]

grouper therapy;1057178 wrote: Where is the data showing skimmers are more efficient. Has someone developed a new method of measuring the removal of dissolved solids?

It's based on the removal of TOC (Total Organic Carbon). I will post the article later when I find it from where I read it. The overall of build of recent skimmers are built for efficiency. There is generally no need to oversize like the need was decades ago. Now, a skimmer rated for 50g can effectively skim a 50g tank instead of the need to buy a 150g rated skimmer even though most skimmers on the market are rated to 3x's.