2x stand vs. all plywood stand questions

[jbdreefs]

so... A while back I bought a 180. Finally cleared off the honey-do-list enough that i don't feel guilty about working on my aquarium!

I was thinking about the stand today. I've always thought the all plywood stands were superior to the 2x constructed stands because it maximizes the available footprint under the stand. However, the 180 is two foot deep and i believe my sump will be at most 18" deep.

With that said. I can spare the lost available footprint. I think the skinned 2x construction would be cheaper to build and look just as nice.

Would I be making a mistake? Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[rhyerob]

Tidbit. If kept dry (enough), plywood is also stronger than stock 2x4s. however 2x4s can hold ALOT of weight.
Good luck. It seems like more of a preference decision IMO

 

[grouper therapy]

Why do you think the skinned 2x would be cheaper?

 

[grouper therapy]

I'm not an accountant but I don't understand how a 2x stand is cheaper.

Edit: I have this free 6'x2' stand drawing for ARC members that you can use to build the main structure then add your trim and such. You would need to download the free version of Sketchup to view it.
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[tgriffin]

^^^^^^ Listen to this guy. He knows what he is talking abou t. Good luck!

 

[jbdreefs]

Thanks grouper. I should clarify that it would be cheaper, for me, because i already have most of the materials.

 

[totalchaos13]

It's the orientation of the fibers that makes the difference in strength. For a vertical load you will want to use solid wood, unless you plan on cutting hundreds of small squares of plywood and stacking! Quote from an expert:
<span style="color: Blue">
The difference between the two is grain. With solid lumber the grain all runs in one direction, in plywood it is opposite for every layer, reducing strength, engineered lumber like Parallam has all the grain running in one direction, just like solid lumber, but the wood is comprised of strips oriented and compressed, but the grain still runs in one direction, hence the strength. MicroLam, or LVL is made up of strips like plywood, but all of the grain runs in one direction, giving it compressive strength, but is as floppy as a wet noodle when laying flat. Plywood is not engineered to hold a load in a vertical orientation, it is engineered for horizontal loading. It still works fine for our purposes though.

I am on the road today so I won't have access to load tables, but the solid wood is stronger. As far as the difference in interior or exterior plywood, the difference used to be mainly the glue, but all plywood is now bonded with the same glue, they stopped switching out the glue long ago, it is cheaper to use exterior glue than it is to switch out, at least in this country, I cannot speak for import plywood.

As far as solid lumber twisting and shrinking, it can happen but is dependent on the wood species. Southern Pine is very much less dimensionally stable than SPF, which is very stable. Wood can move from moisture leaving the cells, most lumber is dried to a moisture content of 19%, (construction grades, not furniture) which is an average of all of the wood in the kiln, some may be more, some may be less. As soon as it leaves the kiln it will continue to dry until it reaches equilibrium with the environment it is in. Less dimensionally stable wood can and frequently bows, twists and warps as it continues to dry but the change in moisture content is slow which lessens the issues with warping etc. Unless you are using Southern Pine, I would not worry too much about warping, twisting or shrinking.

For the record, I have been in the wood industry for almost 30 years, managed a sawmill and treating plant and have distributed lumber all over the the Americas. </em></span>

 

[jbdreefs]

Thanks for the words of wisdom from your source.

I think one of the things to consider is the argument of stronger vs. strong enough. it seems to me that the industry of cabinet/stand making has a lot of confidence in plywood. If I'm not using pine 2x material, then i would certainly not be saving any money....

 

[rdnelson]

While I wouldn't argue with a 30 year expert it seems to me that with solid wood (unless you joined them into pretty massive panels) you are point loading at the vertical corners and center braces. Whereas with plywood, the weight is distributed better. Either way, I believe they both have the required strength to support the weight if constructed correctly. But as I am in this hobby, I am a novice in woodworking as well.

 

[falos]

i have a 2x stand holding a 36'' tall tank and a 34&#8217;&#8217; ply stand holding a 24" high tank both are all wood no metal fasteners and are close to 7 yo. ply or 2x will last you a long time so just use the stuff you have use god sealer and epoxy based varnesh and youl be good for a long time

 

[rededge2k1]

Totalchaos13;825629 wrote: It's the orientation of the fibers that makes the difference in strength. For a vertical load you will want to use solid wood, unless you plan on cutting hundreds of small squares of plywood and stacking! Quote from an expert:
<span style="color: Blue">
The difference between the two is grain. With solid lumber the grain all runs in one direction, in plywood it is opposite for every layer, reducing strength, engineered lumber like Parallam has all the grain running in one direction, just like solid lumber, but the wood is comprised of strips oriented and compressed, but the grain still runs in one direction, hence the strength. MicroLam, or LVL is made up of strips like plywood, but all of the grain runs in one direction, giving it compressive strength, but is as floppy as a wet noodle when laying flat. Plywood is not engineered to hold a load in a vertical orientation, it is engineered for horizontal loading. It still works fine for our purposes though.

I am on the road today so I won't have access to load tables, but the solid wood is stronger. As far as the difference in interior or exterior plywood, the difference used to be mainly the glue, but all plywood is now bonded with the same glue, they stopped switching out the glue long ago, it is cheaper to use exterior glue than it is to switch out, at least in this country, I cannot speak for import plywood.

As far as solid lumber twisting and shrinking, it can happen but is dependent on the wood species. Southern Pine is very much less dimensionally stable than SPF, which is very stable. Wood can move from moisture leaving the cells, most lumber is dried to a moisture content of 19%, (construction grades, not furniture) which is an average of all of the wood in the kiln, some may be more, some may be less. As soon as it leaves the kiln it will continue to dry until it reaches equilibrium with the environment it is in. Less dimensionally stable wood can and frequently bows, twists and warps as it continues to dry but the change in moisture content is slow which lessens the issues with warping etc. Unless you are using Southern Pine, I would not worry too much about warping, twisting or shrinking.

For the record, I have been in the wood industry for almost 30 years, managed a sawmill and treating plant and have distributed lumber all over the the Americas. </em></span>

I hate to come off sounding kinda harsh, but just about everything that guy said is very misleading from an aquarium stand point of view.

If you take a solid wood pine board that is 2" thick, 4" wide and 2' long, and compare it to a piece of plywood that has been glued up to match those same dimensions, the plywood will win in any strength tests all day long. It doesn't matter how the pieces are oriented, the plywood sample will be stronger in all regards. Everytime.

The bottom line is plywood stands are faster, lighter, and cheaper to build than 2x4 stands. Not to mention, you get more usable space inside a plywood stand and they almost always look MUCH better. With a 2x4 stand skinned in plywood, all of the standard off-the-shelf trim that gets slapped onto the stand to cover up the joints tends to give the end piece of furniture a very "I didn't know what I was doing" sorta look. But, give a 2x4 frame skinned in plywood to a finish carpenter, and it can be made to look very nice. It can go either way, but I would say 99.9% of DIY stands I've seen online look very much DIY....if that makes sense.

Just my negative 2 cents!

Dustin

 

[grouper therapy]

Totalchaos13;825629 wrote: It's the orientation of the fibers that makes the difference in strength. For a vertical load you will want to use solid wood, unless you plan on cutting hundreds of small squares of plywood and stacking! Quote from an expert:
<span style="color: Blue">
The difference between the two is grain. With solid lumber the grain all runs in one direction, in plywood it is opposite for every layer, reducing strength, engineered lumber like Parallam has all the grain running in one direction, just like solid lumber, but the wood is comprised of strips oriented and compressed, but the grain still runs in one direction, hence the strength. MicroLam, or LVL is made up of strips like plywood, but all of the grain runs in one direction, giving it compressive strength, but is as floppy as a wet noodle when laying flat. Plywood is not engineered to hold a load in a vertical orientation, it is engineered for horizontal loading. It still works fine for our purposes though.

I am on the road today so I won't have access to load tables, but the solid wood is stronger. As far as the difference in interior or exterior plywood, the difference used to be mainly the glue, but all plywood is now bonded with the same glue, they stopped switching out the glue long ago, it is cheaper to use exterior glue than it is to switch out, at least in this country, I cannot speak for import plywood.

As far as solid lumber twisting and shrinking, it can happen but is dependent on the wood species. Southern Pine is very much less dimensionally stable than SPF, which is very stable. Wood can move from moisture leaving the cells, most lumber is dried to a moisture content of 19%, (construction grades, not furniture) which is an average of all of the wood in the kiln, some may be more, some may be less. As soon as it leaves the kiln it will continue to dry until it reaches equilibrium with the environment it is in. Less dimensionally stable wood can and frequently bows, twists and warps as it continues to dry but the change in moisture content is slow which lessens the issues with warping etc. Unless you are using Southern Pine, I would not worry too much about warping, twisting or shrinking.

For the record, I have been in the wood industry for almost 30 years, managed a sawmill and treating plant and have distributed lumber all over the the Americas. </em></span>

For the record I have USED both dimensional and engineered lumber for the past 33 years in most any application possible within the residential and light commercial industry. I also agree with you in a vertical load especially point load solid lumber is much stronger. That is why we use it for deck post ,studs (wall construction), load bearing columns etc. In our application where we have lots of possible in-plane shear(correct term?) and no way to anchor to a slab, footing or foundation wall so plywood is used to eliminate that shear. Since it is used anyway and will more than adequately carry the vertical load It is senseless to use the dimensional lumber. I use solid lumber on the front of my stands so it has it's place . But I totally disagree that framing lumber should be used in fine cabinetry.

 

[grouper therapy]

Totalchaos13;825629 wrote: It's the orientation of the fibers that makes the difference in strength. For a vertical load you will want to use solid wood, unless you plan on cutting hundreds of small squares of plywood and stacking!</em> Quote from an expert:
<span style="color: Blue"></span>

No.

 

[jbdreefs]

Thanks for all the input guys... Especially from two of the best woodworkers I know (sorta...).

 

[swfk44]

mine are 2x4 frame with 3/4 plywood skin built like a brick ****house :wall: :lol2:

 

[grouper therapy]

RobinsonFam1;826408 wrote: not to debate strength but more design.......using a ply frame and ply surround you are limited to what you build since the two will be glued together permanently.

if you build a 2x frame then you could use the ply to wrap it all up and have the versatility to change it out whenever you feel like it without dismantling the system.

ive never built one like that out of the hundreds ive done but it would be pretty slick. you could even put all the ply on heavy duty magnets and have a completely open stand to run lines, service, maintenance etc....

Not so. I have built several here for ARC that have an inner plywood stand and a separate outer finished shell that simply slides away from the inner.
For example.
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[enderg60]

grouper therapy;826411 wrote: Not so. I have built several here for ARC that have an inner plywood stand and a separate outer finished shell that simply slides away from the inner.
For example.

My Plywood stand(built by dave) is still holding strong as ever. And after 3 years Im finally going to make the skin for it this spring!

 

[grouper therapy]

EnderG60;826422 wrote: My Plywood stand(built by dave) is still holding strong as ever. And after 3 years Im finally going to make the skin for it this spring!

UH huh:yes: Believe that when I see it. Hey come see me sometime.

 

[rhyerob]

RedEDGE2k1;825778 wrote: I hate to come off sounding kinda harsh, but just about everything that guy said is very misleading from an aquarium stand point of view.

If you take a solid wood pine board that is 2" thick, 4" wide and 2' long, and compare it to a piece of plywood that has been glued up to match those same dimensions, the plywood will win in any strength tests all day long. It doesn't matter how the pieces are oriented, the plywood sample will be stronger in all regards. Everytime.

The bottom line is plywood stands are faster, lighter, and cheaper to build than 2x4 stands. Not to mention, you get more usable space inside a plywood stand and they almost always look MUCH better. With a 2x4 stand skinned in plywood, all of the standard off-the-shelf trim that gets slapped onto the stand to cover up the joints tends to give the end piece of furniture a very "I didn't know what I was doing" sorta look. But, give a 2x4 frame skinned in plywood to a finish carpenter, and it can be made to look very nice. It can go either way, but I would say 99.9% of DIY stands I've seen online look very much DIY....if that makes sense.

Just my negative 2 cents!

Dustin

Late on this but +1