Australian Most Wanted....

[jmaneyapanda]

Thanh386;798708 wrote: "likely" is the keyword. I'll find a way to legally attain one if need be. but I will get my hands on one

Unfortunately, the burden of proof is on the coral hobbyists shoulders with this one. So, "likely" isn't good enough to just do. If you showed up sporting a Panda fur coat, you would be required to show it isn't illegal. That is your burden for wanting to display an item which is controlled by federal laws, and is under such environmental scrutiny. You cant just say "Oh, its probably not illegal". Especially when every conceivable option shows it has been illegally imported.

I would LOVE to see you get one legally.

 

[ripped tide]

If they were completely legal, I think I would still pass. I am shying away from anymore NPS corals. So the answer to your question has nothing to do with moral/ethical/ or legality issues.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Ripped Tide;798713 wrote: If they were completely legal, I think I would still pass. I am shying away from anymore NPS corals. So the answer to your question has nothing to do with moral/ethical/ or legality issues.

Really? No one cares if its, legal/ethical/ or moral?:huh::huh:


Here is an instance with very pertinent application:
http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html">http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html</a>

Steve Robinson was a very well respected and influential character in this trade. He was a MAJOR influence on the education and opposition to cyanide reef collection. And yet, he illegally brought in fish (which are not even listed as endangered), and was caught and convicted. This is something that is taken seriously.

 

[kf2008]

jmaneyapanda;798716 wrote:

Here is an instance with very pertinent application:
http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html">http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html</a>

Steve Robinson was a very well respected and influential character in this trade. He was a MAJOR influence on the education and opposition to cyanide reef collection. And yet, he illegally brought in fish (which are not even listed as endangered), and was caught and convicted. This is something that is taken seriously.[/QUOTE]

Point taken - clearly this incident is far greater than $350. Beautiful fish....can you get me one? JUST KIDDING.

 

[thanh386]

jmaneyapanda;798710 wrote: Unfortunately, the burden of proof is on the coral hobbyists shoulders with this one. So, "likely" isn't good enough to just do. If you showed up sporting a Panda fur coat, you would be required to show it isn't illegal. That is your burden for wanting to display an item which is controlled by federal laws, and is under such environmental scrutiny. You cant just say "Oh, its probably not illegal". Especially when every conceivable option shows it has been illegally imported.

I would LOVE to see you get one legally.

or just buy one from reef2reef or ARC?

Edit:

kf2008;798717 wrote: Point taken - clearly this incident is far greater than $350. Beautiful fish....can you get me one? JUST KIDDING.

Clarion isnt illegal to own or collect, just illegal to collect in a specific region

 

[ripped tide]

jmaneyapanda;798716 wrote: Really? No one cares if its, legal/ethical/ or moral?:huh::huh:


Here is an instance with very pertinent application:
http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html">http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/08/collector-for-cortez-marine-pleads-guilty-to-illegally-collecting-rare-angelfish.html</a>

Steve Robinson was a very well respected and influential character in this trade. He was a MAJOR influence on the education and opposition to cyanide reef collection. And yet, he illegally brought in fish (which are not even listed as endangered), and was caught and convicted. This is something that is taken seriously.[/QUOTE]

I do care about legal/moral/ethical reasons, but my lack of desire to provide frequent feedings trumps the other three.

 

[kf2008]

With all due respect to the parties, I think we have bludgeoned this topic. Why don't we close the thread and go back to enjoying what is meant to be enjoyed? A piece of the ocean with a thriving ecosystem in our family room, living room, bedroom or piano room.

 

[ripped tide]

kf2008;798723 wrote: With all due respect to the parties, I think we have bludgeoned this topic. Why don't we close the thread and go back to enjoying what is meant to be enjoyed? A piece of the ocean with a thriving ecosystem in our family room, living room, bedroom or piano room.

:thumbs:

 

[thanh386]

Ripped Tide;798719 wrote: I do care about legal/moral/ethical reasons, but my lack of desire to provide frequent feedings trumps the other three.

Finally, a response that has some honesty to it rather than being judgemental jackass

Edit:

kf2008;798723 wrote: With all due respect to the parties, I think we have bludgeoned this topic. Why don't we close the thread and go back to enjoying what is meant to be enjoyed? A piece of the ocean with a thriving ecosystem in our family room, living room, bedroom or piano room.

Yont even play &gt;.&lt;

 

[jmaneyapanda]

kf2008;798717 wrote: Point taken - clearly this incident is far greater than $350. Beautiful fish....can you get me one? JUST KIDDING.

It is. But he wasnt arrested because of the financial benefit he couldve gotten. He got arrested because he smuggled animals into the country.

Ripped Tide;798719 wrote: I do care about legal/moral/ethical reasons, but my lack of desire to provide frequent feedings trumps the other three.

Well, I didnt expect that, especially with your bravado with attempting other typically difficult to care for animals. But, to each, their own.

kf2008;798723 wrote: With all due respect to the parties, I think we have bludgeoned this topic. Why don't we close the thread and go back to enjoying what is meant to be enjoyed? A piece of the ocean with a thriving ecosystem in our family room, living room, bedroom or piano room.

Agreed- to a point. I, for one, have a difficult time turning a blind eye to illegal activities for our own personal, greedy pride and enjoyment. I <u>WE</u> cant respect collection practices and laws, there is something seriously wrong with this club and its members.

Thanh386;798729 wrote: Finally, a response that has some honesty to it rather than being judgemental jackass

Edit:

Yont even play &gt;.&lt;

So, were all jackasses and dishonest? Man, you are something.

Edit:

Thanh386;798718 wrote: or just buy one from reef2reef or ARC?

Edit:
Clarion isnt illegal to own or collect, just illegal to collect in a specific region

I STILL challenge you to get one legally. Like you said you would. If you'd rather take the illegal, black market, animal smuggling route, that is up to you. But, dont expect the pity party and sympathy when you're called out on it.

Yes, Clarions arent illegal to collect or own (provided the proper permits are there). But the Clipperton angels (as stated in the article).....

 

[ripped tide]

Nps are pretty cool, but I have quite a few difficult fish and corals to keep me busy. I wouldn't say that I would be against caring for NPS corals, but I would want to make sure I have enough time to do more water changes so that I could chum the tank with food for them.

Im actually tryin to cool off on my reef addiction. I'm finding myself a slave to the tank, which I don't mind, but I don't want to make it harder to give the adequate care to the animals I have now. Taking on bigger burdens may may result in the neglect of other animals.

As far as legal issue, I don't really care to have to fork out $$$ to the govt, so any illegal corals are pretty much off my "wanted" list. Murphy's law says that I would be the one to get caught.

 

[thanh386]

I call it how I view it. He even admitted that he didnt get it because of finances, quite contrary to the original statement. You shouldn't base you opinion on others belief and ideals. To take a shot at me, intentionally or not, on a false ideology ... What would you call that?

Your example is still of collection, which if you spend any time reading, all agreed was illegal. I want an example of this occurring of simple possession. I'm pretty sure you won't likely show me EVERY documents of EVERY coral in your store showing that they were all documented correctly. Never received a wellsi that was labeled a brain? Never recieved a dendro that was sold as a sun coral? Whether these corals are legal or not wouldn't matter in that case, since documents were "false" the coral in question would be illegal.

Edit: I do believe a few rhizos have been sold in this club, and a few members of the club, your clients still own them.

Edit: And I said if need be, i can order from sites such as cherry coral or Donovan's reef. Much easier process don't you think? Why must I jump through hoops when I can swipe a Amex?

 

[ripped tide]

$200+ is too much for me to pay on a coral that may land me fines and penalties.... Bald eagles are cool too, I wouldn't own one.

Thanh, if you got a problem, then call me. Otherwise, I'm over this. I can't imagine that you would get this offended over me stating that the lawman is going to not care what position you claim, if actually caught, there would be penalties.

 

[thanh386]

I think if a phone call was needed it should have been from the start. Not after everything has said. This wasn't a case of " hey thanh I was looking out for you" this was a " omg I wanna be a hero"

Edit: Stop trying to stroke your ego and be a normal person again. It was more fun

 

[kf2008]

jmaneyapanda;798759 wrote: It is. But he wasnt arrested because of the financial benefit he couldve gotten. He got arrested because he smuggled animals into the country.

I agree completely, and my point relative to $350 wasn't relative to the financial benefit - it was in reference to a minimum threshold beset by the Lacy Act as part of its felony provision. As a collector, I highly doubt Steve Robinson was looking for financial gain (but I say that without knowing the man). I don't know, nor will we ever know how many smuggling acts were 1) pursued for prosecution, and 2) successful in prosecution. With that said, it seems there is a monetary/market value minimum of $350 and higher in felonious applications.

Steve Robinson, as a seasoned hobbyist and seemingly well-respected collector, should have known better and deserved what he got (which by the way, after two plus years of legal battle, was fined $2,000 and sentenced to 45 days in prison - unable to confirm whether he actually served time vs probation). No doubt, his case was pursued, to some extent, as an example and disincentive to smuggle banned marine livestock.

I unequivocally respect the intent of the law/Lacy Act and am no way advocating illegalities here. I simply wanted to lay the facts, as best as possible, vs. making blanket/broad statements. The Lacy Act was made into law in the SPRING of 1900. Our forefathers were smart and we owe a lot to them but I highly doubt rhizos made the banned/protected list then.

 

[falos]

than there is a ban on these guys for a reason they are not sustainable to harvest as division takes years and no none spawning events have ben recorded and the aquarium trade could put this on the endangered species list in just a few years.
<p style="text-align:left">the only ego trying to be stroked on this topic is yours as you trying to justify a felony

so let me tell you how it is with a DNR poaching and prohibited possession charge first they take the prohibited item through you in a cop car take you down town and wile you are being held they inform you that they sease every thing that was used in committing the crime so your house and everything in it is taken by the feds along with everything in it and if they can prove that you were selling seed item you git a second felony and all assets are sessed
and one more thing all someone has to do is report you DNR dusnot need a warrant
the state of Georgia is very proud of there wildlife laws and conviction rates are around 90%

 

[thanh386]

falos;798779 wrote: than there is a ban on these guys for a reason they are not sustainable to harvest as division takes years and no none spawning events have ben recorded and the aquarium trade could put this on the endangered species list in just a few years.
<p style="text-align:left">the only ego trying to be stroked on this topic is yours as you trying to justify a felony

so let me tell you how it is with a DNR poaching and prohibited possession charge first they take the prohibited item through you in a cop car take you down town and wile you are being held they inform you that they sease every thing that was used in committing the crime so your house and everything in it is taken by the feds along with everything in it and if they can prove that you were selling seed item you git a second felony and all assets are sessed
and one more thing all someone has to do is report you DNR dusnot need a warrant
the state of Georgia is very proud of there wildlife laws and conviction rates are around 90%

Where are you retrieving this information from? From my understanding, they are neither endangered nor at risk. Saying they don't do well in captivity is because they don't or take a long time to reproduce is rather irrelevant. Many of the species we keep in our reef haven't reproduced.

The DNR part, well, you should write fiction. I would definitely buy.

Edit: But this actually gives me something to do, contact the wildlife preserve and maybe invite them over for luch

 

[thanh386]

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/rhyzo-coral-not-necessarily-illegal">http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/rhyzo-coral-not-necessarily-illegal</a>

Hmm all i have to do is find it in Tonga?

 

[ripped tide]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/owner-of-swc-faces-1-000-000-fine-and-prison-time-for-smuggling-protected-species">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/owner-of-swc-faces-1-000-000-fine-and-prison-time-for-smuggling-protected-species</a>

Edit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29222985/

 

[thanh386]

Ripped Tide;798814 wrote: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/owner-of-swc-faces-1-000-000-fine-and-prison-time-for-smuggling-protected-species">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/owner-of-swc-faces-1-000-000-fine-and-prison-time-for-smuggling-protected-species</a>

Edit: [IMG]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29222985/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29222985/</a>[/QUOTE]

could have sworn you said you were done but ok. This is essentially the same thing, illegal importation. I asked for a case that relates to possession.