Cannot figure out what’s wrong

[NanCrab]

Yes, it is significant. That much change so quickly could cause a lot of damage in only 24 hours.

I know you don’t have answers you want... but in our PMs, I previously sent you a solution that will do exactly that. To repeat for people here, test Alk (and calc) more frequently, and do at least 2 tests back to back each time. This will give you insight into the validity of your results, as well as potential causes/issues. So do it. Then let us know the results. Follow the rest of the advice too. It’ll help. The “what-ifs” of your results will provide answers to numerous questions.

As I’ve also stated, don’t make any big changes. Only small changes on occasion, and frequently test your water when doing so. Stopping something cold-Turkey that you do regularly for months is a huge change. Don’t do it blindly. Honestly, you have no way to know how helpful ATI been. But for example, if you stop and then everything dies in 24 hours, then you will have learned the hard way... or... you could just do 2 tests, a few times a week, for 2-3 weeks, learn more about your tank by getting the answers you want, and then make an educated decision.

I know there has been a bunch of advice on here but this is essentially the same thing I said a few days ago (no harm in the repeat @trizzino). Yes, @NanCrab, you should stop dosing (for now). You have to get a handle on your consumption. Dosing without knowing the consumption isn't going to be productive. Its also something you have to stay on top of because as your corals grow, they will take up more elements. So, if you start a tank with a bunch of 1" frags. You could have your dosing down perfect but if they grow into full colonies, your dosing regimen isn't likely to be sufficient anymore.

So your homework:
1. Tonight: Test your mixed saltwater
2. Tonight: Research your salt mix. Not that you need to change but know what your salt parameters are. Is that what you want your tanks' parameters to be? I chose HW Marinemix because it mixes to a Ca and dKh that I want to keep my tank at. I have a google doc on salt mixes that shows all the listed parameters and price per gallon. I can send that to you if you want
3. Tonight: Water change
4. Tomorrow: At a time that is most convenient, test your tank. Make sure this is a time that would be convenient for the remainder of the week.
5. Sunday: Test you tank
6. Monday: Test your tank
7. Tuesday: Test your tank
8. Wednesday: Test your tank
9. Thursday: Test your tank
10. Thursday: Water Change
11. Thursday: Wait 2 hours post water change, test your tank.

This will give you a baseline for your tank's consumption and let you see how your water changes impact your parameters. You can start to develop a dosing schedule and water change schedule from this small data set. You will likely have to adjust and change as more livestock (fish or coral) is added but this would be a solid baseline. I hope this helps!

Thank you. It does help. Andrew had DM’d me but didn’t answer my last post. I have been using the Hanna checker consistently to check dKH. I am very precise in adding water and also in measuring the reagent so I’m relatively certain it isn’t user error. I recently purchased new calcium and magnesium test kits because I wasn’t a fan of the Hanna Calcium checker nor the Red Sea tests. I am now using Seachem kits which were recommended at Pure Reef. The Magnesium kit actually comes with supplies to test the alkalinity as well but I’ve never used it. Do you think that test would be more accurate than the Hanna checker? I could do both at one and compare but how would I know which is correct if I get different results? I really just want to do the right thing although I have to say that things are starting to look better. I’m staring at it now mesmerized by how beautiful everything looks moving in the currents. It’s really just a few pieces I’ve lost. A big red monti that was gorgeous, a stylo and a couple other red monti’s. I have some other SPS corals that are doing fine. I will do your plan. I was also thinking of using the doser to do small daily water changes.

 

[popsbjd]

All hobby grade test kits have their limitations and the ranges can vary. I've never used the seachem tests before. I like the Hanna test personally but if pure reef suggests them, I'd wager they are fine. Its really finding a single test kit and using it properly. They will all give slightly different results both due to human error, different methodology, and different testing accuracy. I think most quality kits will have similar precision. The accuracy may vary but all hobby kits are not going to be dead on accurate. These aren't lab grade tests. Precision is the important part IMO. You need to pick one and stick with it. The repeated tests (back to back) will reduce the human error. The repeated tests (over days) will get you to track your consumption. Honestly, the particular value (as long as it is in range) is not as important as consistency.

 

[ichthyoid]

Fwiw,
Your alkalinity consumption also changes from day to night. The corals will consume more alkalinity during the day. So, this could account for some of the variation you see, ‘IF’ you are not measuring alk. at the same time each day.

The change in alkalinity consumption from day to night is not a huge difference, but could account for some of the variation you see, if you take readings at different times from day to day. Like early morning one day and just before lights go off the next day, for example.

 

[NanCrab]

Fwiw,
Your alkalinity consumption also changes from day to night. The corals will consume more alkalinity during the day. So, this could account for some of the variation you see, ‘IF’ you are not measuring alk. at the same time each day.

The change in alkalinity consumption from day to night is not a huge difference, but could account for some of the variation you see, if you take readings at different times from day to day. Like early morning one day and just before lights go off the next day, for example.

Honestly the tests are NOT being performed consistently at the same time every day. I need to find a time I will always be here and available and stick to that. I didn’t record times, just dates

 

[ichthyoid]

This, combined with Austin’s suggestion to stop dosing & measure alk. consistently for 5 days or so, to find your consumption rate.

Then you will have a good idea of what you should be dosing per day to achieve stable alk. level.

 

[gainesvillereef]

Honestly the tests are NOT being performed consistently at the same time every day. I need to find a time I will always be here and available and stick to that. I didn’t record times, just dates

Measuring Alk at the same time of day is very important.

This, combined with Austin’s suggestion to stop dosing & measure alk. consistently for 5 days or so, to find your consumption rate.

Then you will have a good idea of what you should be dosing per day to achieve stable alk. level.

I completely agree with this. Measure it only once per week and around water changes which should be done at consistent intervals as well if at all. Pilot error, test kit variability, time of day, and water changes can affect the usefulness of your readings. It's better to work with averages like the average daily consumption over 5-7 days.

 

[Trizzino]

Thank you. It does help. Andrew had DM’d me but didn’t answer my last post. I have been using the Hanna checker consistently to check dKH. I am very precise in adding water and also in measuring the reagent so I’m relatively certain it isn’t user error. I recently purchased new calcium and magnesium test kits because I wasn’t a fan of the Hanna Calcium checker nor the Red Sea tests. I am now using Seachem kits which were recommended at Pure Reef. The Magnesium kit actually comes with supplies to test the alkalinity as well but I’ve never used it. Do you think that test would be more accurate than the Hanna checker? I could do both at one and compare but how would I know which is correct if I get different results? I really just want to do the right thing although I have to say that things are starting to look better. I’m staring at it now mesmerized by how beautiful everything looks moving in the currents. It’s really just a few pieces I’ve lost. A big red monti that was gorgeous, a stylo and a couple other red monti’s. I have some other SPS corals that are doing fine. I will do your plan. I was also thinking of using the doser to do small daily water changes.

Do not setup AWC right now. Stop making additional changes that won’t help you learn your tanks parameters and consumption. If you keep changing things you will never find out what is working and what isn’t and in a few weeks this thread will more than likely repeat itself. The solution to this current problem is testing, patience and adding no other variables into the mix.

If I’ve learned anything in this hobby it is that my impatience is my own worst enemy. 99% of the time.... Good things in this hobby don’t happen fast, only bad things do.

 

[popsbjd]

Good things in this hobby don’t happen fast, only bad things do.

If there is a reefing 10 commandments or something similar, this should be #1.

 

[Trizzino]

Also, stick to one test kit or do each every time. Do not switch between them (ex. Hanna one day and Red Sea the next) keep it structured. The goal is establishing baseline for consumption.

 

[civics14]

so many changes, inconsistencies in your process, and lack of patience to see results after a single change before making another change is a full proof way for failure.

As others said, slow things down. Stop changing things so often without letting the last change to settle in.

 

[Adam]

Also, stick to one test kit or do each every time. Do not switch between them (ex. Hanna one day and Red Sea the next) keep it structured. The goal is establishing baseline for consumption.

I may be in the minority here but I believe in having a backup kit from a different maker. My preferred kit is always my primary but at the same interval I use both kits at the same time. (I'm not looking for the test to be the same, just consistent)
Let's take Alk, Hanna is my primary and Red Sea is the secondary. If I test Alk every other day on the 3rd day I'd test with both kits. The reason I do this is something I've said over and over. If the primary test throws and odd result, test again. If the result is still odd test again with another kit to verify test kit number ones result. You have to use the second kit enough to be competent at preforming the test. You should always verify your results before making a dosing change or correction. But before you can dose anything you need to know your consumption.

 

[Trizzino]

I may be in the minority here but I believe in having a backup kit from a different maker. My preferred kit is always my primary but at the same interval I use both kits at the same time. (I'm not looking for the test to be the same, just consistent)
Let's take Alk, Hanna is my primary and Red Sea is the secondary. If I test Alk every other day on the 3rd day I'd test with both kits. The reason I do this is something I've said over and over. If the primary test throws and odd result, test again. If the result is still odd test again with another kit to verify test kit number ones result. You have to use the second kit enough to be competent at preforming the test. You should always verify your results before making a dosing change or correction. But before you can dose anything you need to know your consumption.

I like that method and think it's a good fail-safe to have. I was referring to using different kits on varying days. EXAMPLE: Monday: Hanna Tuesday: Hanna Wed: Red Sea Thurs: Red Sea Fri: Hanna and then use the test results to calculate.
By all means you can use multiple tests, you just HAVE to do tests with both kits and document which result is which. Just because they test the same thing doesn't mean the -/+ for error is the same. Like you said "I'm not looking for the test to be the same, just consistent". Switching which test kit you use interchangeably will not be good.

 

[Adam]

I like that method and think it's a good fail-safe to have. I was referring to using different kits on varying days. EXAMPLE: Monday: Hanna Tuesday: Hanna Wed: Red Sea Thurs: Red Sea Fri: Hanna and then use the test results to calculate.
By all means you can use multiple tests, you just HAVE to do tests with both kits and document which result is which. Just because they test the same thing doesn't mean the -/+ for error is the same. Like you said "I'm not looking for the test to be the same, just consistent". Switching which test kit you use interchangeably will not be good.

I would say that would border on detrimental.

With the +/-
Hanna is +/- 5%, so a reading of 9dKH could be 9.45 or 8.55. That in and of itself is quite a margin. But I'm color blind, so that's what I use.
Red Sea is +/- 0.05 meq/L or 0.14dKH. A 9dKH reading there could be 9.14 or 8.86.

Anything within those margins should be considered accurate. If I was keeping and testing 9dKH consistently for weeks or months and got an 8 result back on the checker, I'd grab a new, clean, vial and test again. If that test came back at 8 again I'd then test with the Red Sea. Now that test come back at anywhere between 7.86 and 8.14 it would verify the Hanna and I'd have to figure out why the drop and what to do about it. On the other hand if the RS test result was 8.9 or more I'd know there is most likely something wrong with the Hanna. A bad reagent, dirty vial, something. The biggest thing is, I don't need to do a damn thing with the system. If I took that first Hanna reading and knee jerked by corrective dosing the tank I'd be pushing the dKH up to or over 10, when nothing was wrong in the first place.

I don't care what test kits you use. Be methodical and consistent. Then double check any odd results to remove human error. If anyone doesn't know what consistent is. It's testing a known sample value multiple times back to back and getting results within the the kit's margin of error each time. If you can't to that then you can never fully trust what you're doing when you test.

 

[popsbjd]

And now I'm going to drop my favorite graphic on accuracy and precision (consistency). We want precise and accurate. We, in reality with hobby test kits, get accurate but not precise. However, even if the results are precise but not accurate, we would be fine too. The problems would arise if the results are neither accurate nor precise. A backup test kit would be beneficial to rule out an inaccurate, not precise test kit.

 

[NanCrab]

I’m beginning to regret posting this thread. I am not a child, I do not need to be scolded. I am not even going to try to defend myself because it’s not worth it. It’s taken on a life of its own. I HAVE NOT MADE ANY CHANGES TO ANYTHING EXCEPT LIGHTING IN AT LEAST FOUR MONTHS. In case you missed it I’ve been in the hospital. December 14 thru Jan 28 then again Feb 22 to March 1. And sps are dying and there are unexplained swings in parameters though one thing I have gleaned from all of this is to pick a time of day to test and stick with it. I have NO idea how any of you are getting the idea that I’m changing things or adding things or whatever. My husband did a cyano treatment while I was in the hospital because he said it was covering everything and killing it and he had been working for months with brushing it off and sucking it out and water changes. Many of the test results I posted were testing he did while I was in the hospital. He rarely does the tests so anything done while I was in the hospital could have been user error. As for the AWC’s - from all my research I was under the impression that they were much better for stability than large water changes. All I was trying to figure out was why I went to the hospital and had a thriving tank and came home to some sad looking things.

 

[Trizzino]

I’m beginning to regret posting this thread. I am not a child, I do not need to be scolded. I am not even going to try to defend myself because it’s not worth it. It’s taken on a life of its own. I HAVE NOT MADE ANY CHANGES TO ANYTHING EXCEPT LIGHTING IN AT LEAST FOUR MONTHS. In case you missed it I’ve been in the hospital. December 14 thru Jan 28 then again Feb 22 to March 1. And sps are dying and there are unexplained swings in parameters though one thing I have gleaned from all of this is to pick a time of day to test and stick with it. I have NO idea how any of you are getting the idea that I’m changing things or adding things or whatever. My husband did a cyano treatment while I was in the hospital because he said it was covering everything and killing it and he had been working for months with brushing it off and sucking it out and water changes. Many of the test results I posted were testing he did while I was in the hospital. He rarely does the tests so anything done while I was in the hospital could have been user error. As for the AWC’s - from all my research I was under the impression that they were much better for stability than large water changes. All I was trying to figure out was why I went to the hospital and had a thriving tank and came home to some sad looking things.

Okay. Nothing I said was scolding and will refrain from offering what I’ve learned and how to answer your ultimate question “All I was trying to figure out was why I went to the hospital and had a thriving tank and came home to some sad looking things.”

I wish you the best of luck on your reefing journey and will send prayers your way for your health.

 

[ichthyoid]

Just trying to help.
Apologies for any discomfort this thread caused you.

 

[popsbjd]

I think everyone here is doing their best to try to give you good advice with the best motives. I'm sorry you feel attacked. It wasn't my intention certainly and I don't think it was anyone else's. I do think you have a path forward at this point. It might be worth it just to lock the thread so you don't get any more unsolicited advice. Good luck both with the reef and your health.

 

[ZapataInc]

Closed the thread per the request of the OP.

 

[Shawn]