Closed Loop Pumps

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

I'm interested to see people's opinions on CL pumps. I'm thinking seriously, esp. w/ the recall on koralia #3s (which i have 2 of), of changing out to a CLM for the asthetic appeal (no phs in the tank).

Anyway, the pumps i'm looking at are:

Pump Cost Watts GPH GPH/W Noise
Sequence Dart 3600 $220.00 160 3600 22.5 52
Poseiden PS4 $159.99 145 1225 8.45 30
Little Giant 4-MDQX-SC $149.99 145 1325 9.14 noisy
GenX PCX-70 $164.99 180 1537 8.54 noisy

Initial cost on the sequence is high, and it seems to be one of the quieter pumps (couldn't find decible ratings on the little giant or genX, but anecdotal testimony is that they are both louder pumps), but it is the more efficient pump. The only problem is that it is at the upper limit of what my wife will allow me to spend...

Anybody have any opinions or other suggestions?

thanks,

Matt

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

Sequence also makes the snapper pump...

$199.00 2500gph 98w 25.5gph/w <52 decibles (assumed)

xyzpdq0121 · Mar 22, 2007

Matt... You are asking question that have been the thorn in my foot lately!

I LOVE CL systems but have learned ALOT about pumps as of late! Your flow rate that you want to achieve is HIGH. How big is your system? I would look in the range of 2400gph for anything in the area of 100gallon - 240 gallon tank. If you are larger then that a 3600gph will be what you need. Smaller then that (55gal-90 gal) and I would go with a 1800gph pump.

As far as the pump, I am partial to Mags because they are cheap and I can run them in sump to make them quiet. Bad side is they eat up power and run hot in a sump and could heat up the water. The dart is the best way to go if you can afford it. VERY low power usage and very quiet. It would be my first choice if I were you!

FutureInterest · Mar 22, 2007

If low noise is your priority then you have to go with the T4, its the quietest pump of the 4. I actually have to put my hand on it to know that its even running. I run a T4 as my return and picked up another one for my eventual closed loop...

Everyone says that the T4 adds heat to your system, which I'm sure it does but I've had no problem keeping my tank temperature +/- 1 degree with 1 T4. Anyways, I may have to switch to another pump if the second T4 makes the heat hard to control.

Are you going to use a oceanmotions device with your CL or a scwd or nada? Oceanmotions seems to be the way to go

. Sign up for the powerbuy in the ARC members forum.

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

Hey, thanks for the reply!

This is for my closed loop in a 65g tank, so I'm leaning toward the Snapper which is 2500gph at only 98 watts. I would use 6x outlets on my CLM and do a fully enclosed loop ala Calfo's design. I'm aiming at 300-400gph per nozzle from the CLM. The 6 nozzles of the CLM and the 2 from the return would give me 8 sources of flow, much better than the 4 i have now w/ two "recall koralias" and the return.

I have a Mag 9.5, and I actually am considering downgrading to a Mag 7 or even a 5 for my return pump to quiet things up. IMO, the Mag 9.5 is too much pump for my sump...

If I can convince my wife to let me get the snapper, that's what I'll do.

rhomer · Mar 22, 2007

FutureInterest;30090 wrote: If low noise is your priority then you have to go with the T4, its the quietest pump of the 4. I actually have to put my hand on it to know that its even running. I run a T4 as my return and picked up another one for my eventual closed loop...

Everyone says that the T4 adds heat to your system, which I'm sure it does but I've had no problem keeping my tank temperature +/- 1 degree with 1 T4. Anyways, I may have to switch to another pump if the second T4 makes the heat hard to control.

Are you going to use a oceanmotions device with your CL or a scwd or nada? Oceanmotions seems to be the way to go . Sign up for the powerbuy in the ARC members forum.

I second the T4 I have one and it is dead silent. You cannot hear this pump at all and the only way to check is to look in the tank at the flow, or put your hand on the pump. Which brings me to the second point. This pump gets hot very hot, too hot to touch. Reliable and very very quiet.

Is there going to be a powerbuy on the oceanmotions? If so I will be in on this, thanks to Cameron for helping me spend money.

Rob

FutureInterest · Mar 22, 2007

Check the ARC forums... the thread hasn't seen any action of late...

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

rhomer;30111 wrote: I second the T4 I have one and it is dead silent. You cannot hear this pump at all and the only way to check is to look in the tank at the flow, or put your hand on the pump. Which brings me to the second point. This pump gets hot very hot, too hot to touch. Reliable and very very quiet.

Is there going to be a powerbuy on the oceanmotions? If so I will be in on this, thanks to Cameron for helping me spend money.

Rob

Rob,

I was leaning toward the T4, but it just doesn't push enough volume for me to pull the trigger on it...

The way I look at it, the EuroReef skimmer is so noisy, a 52 decible Snapper will probably not even be noticed...

snapper = 1st choice
T4 = 2nd choice

thanks to everyone for their input,

Matt

rhomer · Mar 22, 2007

Thats cool since your going to split up the flow so much. My T4 is on a spray bar and single loc line and my caps grow inverted like BigD's because there is just too much flow directed toward the coral. I figured it was time to spread the flow out a little more.

BTW sorry about the Koralia's. I hope they take care of you on that.

Rob

FutureInterest · Mar 22, 2007

Are eductors no longer in style? I've never had one before but from my understanding as long as your pump is pressure rated you can increase your overall flow quite a bit without increasing your gph.

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

rhomer;30124 wrote: Thats cool since your going to split up the flow so much. My T4 is on a spray bar and single loc line and my caps grow inverted like BigD's because there is just too much flow directed toward the coral. I figured it was time to spread the flow out a little more.

BTW sorry about the Koralia's. I hope they take care of you on that.

Rob

We'll see...

Drs Foster&Smith, MarineandReef, and some other vendors are being proactive about it and not asking questions, but my vendor is giving me trouble. I've asked them about why they don't seem to be interested in matching the offers of their competitors, so we'll see what they say.

thanks,

Matt

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

FutureInterest;30126 wrote: Are eductors no longer in style? I've never had one before but from my understanding as long as your pump is pressure rated you can increase your overall flow quite a bit without increasing your gph.

I may be out to lunch, but I thought I read somewhere that eductors on a CL don't work too well because the flow is concentrated, unlike the stream style pumps which produce a more dispersed flow. Apparently the eductors are like concentrated JETS...

like I said though, i may be off my rocker on this one...

xyzpdq0121 · Mar 22, 2007

MattTVI;30100 wrote: Hey, thanks for the reply!

This is for my closed loop in a 65g tank, so I'm leaning toward the Snapper which is 2500gph at only 98 watts. I would use 6x outlets on my CLM and do a fully enclosed loop ala Calfo's design. I'm aiming at 300-400gph per nozzle from the CLM. The 6 nozzles of the CLM and the 2 from the return would give me 8 sources of flow, much better than the 4 i have now w/ two "recall koralias" and the return.

I have a Mag 9.5, and I actually am considering downgrading to a Mag 7 or even a 5 for my return pump to quiet things up. IMO, the Mag 9.5 is too much pump for my sump... If I can convince my wife to let me get the snapper, that's what I'll do.

Matt, I think you are going to find this is a bit over kill even with the snapper... I have a first hand design from Calfo (He is a diving buddy of mine). Do me a favor and try this if you do not mind. Take your 9.5, build your closed loop with 1/2" PVC straight from the pump, and see how that works. If you want, you can come see mine that I am rebuilding right now. I went with 3/4" pvc and the pressure is not great enough. If I were to go with 1/2" the 9.5 would be enough for atleast 5 outlets but I regress. I have tried a Mag 36 and 2400gph pump and everything was way too much. granted I keep softies and LPS so sps can handle more but still. I would not go any greater then a Mag 18 or the equivalant. So I suggest trying to use your Mag 9.5, building the CL with 6 outlets (capping one if need be) and i gaurentee that will work (ok about 90% sure).

Just my input and experience.

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

Xyzpdq0121;30161 wrote: Matt, I think you are going to find this is a bit over kill even with the snapper... I have a first hand design from Calfo (He is a diving buddy of mine). Do me a favor and try this if you do not mind. Take your 9.5, build your closed loop with 1/2" PVC straight from the pump, and see how that works. If you want, you can come see mine that I am rebuilding right now. I went with 3/4" pvc and the pressure is not great enough. If I were to go with 1/2" the 9.5 would be enough for atleast 5 outlets but I regress. I have tried a Mag 36 and 2400gph pump and everything was way too much. granted I keep softies and LPS so sps can handle more but still. I would not go any greater then a Mag 18 or the equivalant. So I suggest trying to use your Mag 9.5, building the CL with 6 outlets (capping one if need be) and i gaurentee that will work (ok about 90% sure).

Just my input and experience.

You know Calfo? That's pretty cool as he seems like a really cool guy.

Are you sure that my Mag 9.5 will be enough juice for my closed loop? I get about 800gph and I'm looking for 25-30x in tank turnover which the 800gph can't match.

thanks,

Matt

rhomer · Mar 22, 2007

I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for. But I do agree that the snapper (assuming this is the sequence) is going to be a lot of flow.
I have 1200 gph out of my T4 and a 4 ft tank and it is a ton of flow. Before I put the spray bar on, the sand on the other end of the tank was piling up.

It's up to you, but the sequence is going to require a lot of outlets.

Rob

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

rhomer;30179 wrote: I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for. But I do agree that the snapper (assuming this is the sequence) is going to be a lot of flow.
I have 1200 gph out of my T4 and a 4 ft tank and it is a ton of flow. Before I put the spray bar on, the sand on the other end of the tank was piling up.

It's up to you, but the sequence is going to require a lot of outlets.

Rob

yeah, i have 2x koralias in there now producing 850gph each, if i can get a pump pushing about 2000gph after head loss, that'll give me 330gph +/- per nozzle. Do you think that would be too strong? If I used 1.5" pipe for the CLM, that should produce a fairly wide flow out of the nozzles, correct?

thanks guys,

Matt

xyzpdq0121 · Mar 22, 2007

Ya I knew Fenner and Calfo from diving years ago when I was into reefing (about 10 years ago) I got out of the hobby and do not dive nearly as much as I want to, but I get to call on them with questions for the tough stuff! Great perk of friends in this hobby!

There is pretty much no headloss with a CL.. Like I said, it is worth a try instead of dropping $200 for a new pump, spend $15 on PVC and try it. I wish I would have tried 1/2" PVC the first go around then I would be able to tell you for sure. I got a 2400gph pump on there now with 6 outlets and a spraybar and it is too much IMHO. I am using 3/4" PVC so the pressure of a Mag 18 (or even a 9.5) running through 1/2" should be enough. I use 1/2" outlets, you chould even go with something a bit smaller if need be. If you use the 2400gph pump, go 3/4" PVC at the least... What corals are you keeping?

matttvi · Mar 22, 2007

Xyzpdq0121;30185 wrote: Ya I knew Fenner and Calfo from diving years ago when I was into reefing (about 10 years ago) I got out of the hobby and do not dive nearly as much as I want to, but I get to call on them with questions for the tough stuff! Great perk of friends in this hobby!

There is pretty much no headloss with a CL.. Like I said, it is worth a try instead of dropping $200 for a new pump, spend $15 on PVC and try it. I wish I would have tried 1/2" PVC the first go around then I would be able to tell you for sure. I got a 2400gph pump on there now with 6 outlets and a spraybar and it is too much IMHO. I am using 3/4" PVC so the pressure of a Mag 18 (or even a 9.5) running through 1/2" should be enough. I use 1/2" outlets, you chould even go with something a bit smaller if need be. If you use the 2400gph pump, go 3/4" PVC at the least... What corals are you keeping?

no coral, this tank will have a bunch of anenome's in it... all BTA's from the same clone, only 1x bta right now, but i'm hoping it'll start cloning after it gets big.

xyzpdq0121 · Mar 22, 2007

rhomer;30179 wrote: I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for.

You are only increasing the pressure in the PVC at that point. The decrease in PVC size should to restrict the output in the pump much.

Hell in that case run a 9.5 and plump in some pvc at the outlets with holes in it (I forget what the tech name for the physics behind it is) but it will act like a cannon out of each nozzel..

rhomer · Mar 22, 2007

Brandon I'm not trying to step on your toes, but I did this with a mag 5 and the water barely trickled out.

Now I know that the mag 9.5 is almost twice as much, but I do know that Mags are designed to run in sump and don't perform as well as external or cl pumps.

Brandon does have good point of your out 20 bucks and 3 hours to try it.

Rob

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