Closed Loop Pumps

[matttvi]

Would the CL ever be able to drain if there was no way for air to get into it?

In other words, all outlets and inlets are fully submersed to the point where even when the return cuts off the nozzles still stay submerged?

thanks!

btw, that primer box looks complicated, is it a difficult thing to build?

Matt

 

[george]

The primer is simply a sort of "sump" of water attached to the front of the pump. The pump's initial pull on that volume of water sucks the part that lost siphon when the pump was shut off and the whole thing starts up again (you get some bubbles, though).

The only difficult part would be finding the combination of PVC parts that would mate a tube that could hold a volume of water to the input of the pump. There probably isn't alot of call for a 6"x1"x6" tee PVC pipe so creativity or a bunch of reducers would be involved.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Matt you can forgo the whole primer box thing. As long as all inlets and outlets stay under water there is no problem if the pump starts and stops. I plumed a primer tube into the uptake using a 3/4" T connection and a small pipe and cap for the end. I just take the cap off if I ever need to prime the system (say I drop the water level doing a 50% water change for some reason.) Maybe I will try to take you some pics to help explain. Calfo's idea was good but I am a bit better of a polish engineer then he is.

 

[matttvi]

George;30302 wrote: The primer is simply a sort of "sump" of water attached to the front of the pump. The pump's initial pull on that volume of water sucks the part that lost siphon when the pump was shut off and the whole thing starts up again (you get some bubbles, though).

The only difficult part would be finding the combination of PVC parts that would mate a tube that could hold a volume of water to the input of the pump. There probably isn't alot of call for a 6"x1"x6" tee PVC pipe so creativity or a bunch of reducers would be involved.

I'd have to take a peak at Home Depot, but don't they have something like that in their lawn-sprinkler area?

btw, found the old Calfo post. thought I'd post it here, so you could take a peak at it...

--------------------------------------------------------------
"As for the pump feed... alas, this is not an option: the tank must be drilled if you are going to use the sequence pump. External pumps must be "flooded" (water flows freely into them directly).

Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.

If you cannot drill the tank, you then need a submersible pump (like a Mag drive) to feed the CL. Along with that come some (small) heat issues."

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5370191#post5370191">http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5370191#post5370191</a>
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thanks!

I'd give you more rep, but I gots to spread the love around!

 

[matttvi]

Xyzpdq0121;30305 wrote: Matt you can forgo the whole primer box thing. As long as all inlets and outlets stay under water there is no problem if the pump starts and stops. I plumed a primer tube into the uptake using a 3/4" T connection and a small pipe and cap for the end. I just take the cap off if I ever need to prime the system (say I drop the water level doing a 50% water change for some reason.) Maybe I will try to take you some pics to help explain. Calfo's idea was good but I am a bit better of a polish engineer then he is.

oh my, my, my...
I'm going to file that one away and bring it up to him someday... :yay:

thanks!

I do weekly water changes that would drop the water level well below, so I would just need to remember to reprime the pump after every water change... right?

Matt

 

[matttvi]

actually, and i realize i'm pretty much talking to myself now...

wouldn't one of http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=FT9077">these swing check valves</a> plumbed somewhere after the outlet of the squence but before the actually manifold pretty much take care of the problem?

I realize they reduce flow, but Reeflo recommends throttling these bad boys back a wee bit.

thanks,

Matt

 

[xyzpdq0121]

George;30297 wrote: Probably. Basically the same thing without the big basket.

However the self-priming basket (bought or DIY) would ensure you were primed on power outages.

Oops I should have read the rest of the thread! :doh:

In a power outage as long as the water line does not drop below your intake no need to prime. I have my intake line drilled with holes to disapte the force of the uptake.. If you want a new pump out of your list the GenX or Posiden would be my choice (the PS4 taking the billing because of how quiet it is). Just know you have to plumb it with vinyl tubing for the input and output. Which is good because that is how I like to plub it.

Yes you would have to reprime it each time but your idea of a screw cap works fine... That is how mine is on..

 

[xyzpdq0121]

MattTVI;30307 wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"As for the pump feed... alas, this is not an option: the tank must be drilled if you are going to use the sequence pump. External pumps must be "flooded" (water flows freely into them directly).

Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.

If you cannot drill the tank, you then need a submersible pump (like a Mag drive) to feed the CL. Along with that come some (small) heat issues."

We if that is what the man says then I tend to believe him. He knows more about plumbig then I do. I work off of theory, he knows facts. I see his point about noise/cavitation but I do not know how much impact it will have in the end. I fail to see how the pump will starve but again, him and cameron know more then I do about pumps and such!

 

[matttvi]

the vinyl tubing is for the Poseidin, correct?

the snapper looks like it is setup for threaded pvc...

I appreciate your input brandon; it has been most helpful. I do have a question though, given that the manifold is above the input, wouldn't the water in the CLM syphon back into the tank when the water line dropped below the output nozzles?

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Yes the poseiden need vinyl tubing.. It is a 1" barb connection.

As for your last question, yes, hence why you need to prime it if you drop the water level that low. (I think I mispoke when I said "as long as it does not drop below the intake" I meant to say intake/outtake.)

 

[cameron]

I am sure someone posted this earlier...

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html">http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html</a>

I have seen at least two setups with a Dart that did an over the back design using something very similar to the link above and it had no reported problems. I believe Sams tank runs that way:

[IMG]http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/">http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/</a>

 

[matttvi]

Cameron;30325 wrote: I am sure someone posted this earlier...

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html">http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html</a>

I have seen at least two setups with a Dart that did an over the back design using something very similar to the link above and it had no reported problems. I believe Sams tank runs that way:

[IMG]http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/">http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/</a>
[/QUOTE]


lol, like magic he appears... :)

I just pm'ed you for your opinion on this one... :)

I guess the only thing left to do is find out if I really have 6.5" between my tank and the wall to fit this darn monster pump in...

As for Melev's design, I like it but instead of 2 simple outlets, I was going to do an enclosed mainfold that sat atop the tank. No problems w/ that, correct?

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Matt,

No problems there, mine is set up as a hybred between calfo's loop and the Melev's loop. Notice the primer tube.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

MattTVI;30326 wrote: lol, like magic he appears...

No, more like th Bat light that batman uses!! He shows up like a super hero when a fellow reefer is in need!!!

 

[cameron]

I wish I had the answer to my design. I have four 1" holes (two overflows) in the bottom of my tank and I haven't quite figured out how I am going to plumb it. I think I have the outtake of the CL/sump down (by going over the top on both... spray bar for sump nozzle for CL), but not sure how I am going to plumb the intake with stand pipes. Maybe two Dursos for the sump (as it is now) and two PVC pipes with a bunch of holes in the other intakes. Gah... I don't know.

 

[FutureInterest]

Xyzpdq0121;30324 wrote: Yes the poseiden need vinyl tubing.. It is a 1" barb connection.

Odd both my T4's are threaded... Perhaps its because they are velocity T4's.

Hmmm... since you're doing an anenome only tank I guess you can have as much flow as you want... since you have no fear of them moving onto your favorite clam or corals. Although, from my limited personal experience, I have found that my anenomes hate a lot of flow and will choose the relative dead spots in the tank. When they're in too much flow their tentacles tend to spin into knots which just looks painful .

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Hig flow for acros = good

High flow for most softies, LPS, Anenomes = Bad

Tank turn over is not as important as velocity IMHO because they are not really filter feeders.

 

[matttvi]

Xyzpdq0121;30424 wrote: Hig flow for acros = good

High flow for most softies, LPS, Anenomes = Bad

Tank turn over is not as important as velocity IMHO because they are not really filter feeders.

Well, I'm trying to go w/ the generalized 30-40 rule that Calfo seems to like. I posted a question about my plans over in his forum. He's a busy guy though so no answer yet.

Again, I appreciate all the feed back, folks!

Matt

 

[george]

MattTVI;30307 wrote: Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.

I agree that Anthony has way, way more experience than I at this hobby, but the physics of fluid motion disagree with him IF you design the system to never break siphon.

For example:

If you have a 2' tall tank and the pipe goes over the side to a pump down by the side of the tank, you have maybe 4"-6" that the water has to go up, followed by a 2'+ drop to the pump. That 2' column of water pulls with much more force than the part that rises out of the tank. I would think that if you took that into consideration in designing the flow and volume of the intake pipe, you could ensure that the pump is never starved.

A gravity feed below the water line would be the max water flow, but I don't think that over the top means it's impossible to feed the pump enough water.

You could just as easily starve the pump by not giving it a big enough hole in the side of your tank.

 

[matttvi]

George,

Thanks for the info. I think I may be able to do it, but it's going to be a tight space between the back of the tank and the wall. I'm just over 6.5 inches which is the width that the snapper is listed at.

I don't know if anybody commented on the check valve after the outlet on the pipe, but that would effectively prevent a complete symphon out of the manifold and back into the tank, correct?

thanks,

Matt