Denitrate as a substrate?

[picoreefguy]

Ok so I've been thinking about small tanks again and am most likely going to build another pico out of acrylic.but instead of sand I'm wanting to use denitrate to *** an extra layer of filtration. I never had any problems (other than aptasia) in my current pico, which I'm about to take down but I just wanted to try something new and see what happens. but before I do I wanted to see if anyone has done it before or has any opinions about this idea.

 

[ripped tide]

Some of it may float for a little while. I have used Matrix as a substrate in a refugium.

 

[mcphock]

I have long since held the belief that this stuff is nothing more than biological media... there's nothing fancy about how it works. It's what canister filter owners have been using for years.

That being said, I am under the impression that it needs substantial flow to be able to fulfill the last stage of denitrafication. Otherwise, you're basically just putting in organic gravel.

 

[seth the wine guy]

It would certainly house the anaerobic bacteria. More than a regular sand/rock substrate you would use? Don't know. I think it would look a little odd in a SW tank but would look ok in some FW applications.

 

[mcphock]

Seth The Wine Guy;863335 wrote: It would certainly house the anaerobic bacteria. More than a regular sand/rock substrate you would use? Don't know.

I've always thought this product's capability to turn nitrate into nitrogen to be a bit of marketing fluff. Of course there will be some of that, just like (virtually) anything else used for biological media.</em> Would like to see an independent scientific study.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

McPhock;863316 wrote: I have long since held the belief that this stuff is nothing more than biological media... there's nothing fancy about how it works. It's what canister filter owners have been using for years.

That being said, I am under the impression that it needs substantial flow to be able to fulfill the last stage of denitrafication. Otherwise, you're basically just putting in organic gravel.

I huge difference is the internal surface area. This allows a massive area for denitrification. Whereas nearly all other biological filters don't have this capacity for anaerobic growth. As Dylan said, it's so porous, it usually floats.

 

[jennm]

Typical canister media are what we refer to as "ceramic noodles"... surface area on the outside, but no pores like Denitrate or Matrix (the latter is the same media, larger particle size). It's much more efficient - and complete.

It IS biological media (not mechanical or chemical). We love the stuff.

Jenn

 

[picoreefguy]

yea ive been using matrix for a few years now and ive come across a couple ways to deal with the floating issue one is to simply tie it up in a media bag for a week or two and let it soak in an open area in the sump and then put it where ever you want it. or use the container it came in and fill it with saltwater and let the matrix soak. the reason i was asking though is because i want to use it in a tank setup with no filtration other than the biofiltration and water changes. i have done this in a 1 gallon pico that has been up for about a year and 3 months now and it even had a yellow clown goby in it for about a year until i moved it to my main tank about a month ago. but it had sand and a rock structure i made as the filtration. i just wanted to boost the biofiltration with the denitrate in the new tank im thinking about. another idea i had was to use sand as the substrate and make a rock structure out of pond matrix (still the same stuff just even larger size).

McPhock;863316 wrote: I have long since held the belief that this stuff is nothing more than biological media... there's nothing fancy about how it works. It's what canister filter owners have been using for years.

well like jenn said most canister filters use those ceramic rings/noodles which only utilize the surface for bacterial growth where as matrix is completely pourous all the way through and can house bacteria throughout its structure.

McPhock;863316 wrote: That being said, I am under the impression that it needs substantial flow to be able to fulfill the last stage of denitrafication. Otherwise, you're basically just putting in organic gravel.

imo giving it a lot of flow might not be the best idea. the whole purpose of it is to provide a place for anaerobic bacteria and they need a lack of oxygen to survive and excessive flow would introduce more oxygen into the inside of the structure of it. now obviously its not going to get all the way inside before the aerobic bacteria consume all the o2 unless you're using a mag 9 to push water through a reactor with matrix in it lol but it will cut down on the usable space for the anarobic bacteria and may cause a noticable decrease in denitrification.

 

[mcphock]

No, no, I should have been more clear.

My canister filters all use sintered glass, like this:
http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/biological/substratpro">http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/biological/substratpro</a>

Matrix is exact same idea (extremely porous material capable of supporting high bacterial loads), and in fact, even compares itself to Substrat Pro. The extra magic that Denitrate supposedly throws in is that the difference in particle porosity permits anaerobic bacteria to grow that remove nitrate in addition to aerobically removing nitrite and ammonia. The Nitrate portion is where I think they're pulling a bit of marketing magic.

I don't doubt that this product, or any other porous surface can house bacteria that will remove nitrite and ammonia. I'd like to see what the real world results are of using matrix versus another porous biological media in strict nitrate reduction.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Picoreefguy;863478 wrote: yea ive been using matrix for a few years now and ive come across a couple ways to deal with the floating issue one is to simply tie it up in a media bag for a week or two and let it soak in an open area in the sump and then put it where ever you want it. or use the container it came in and fill it with saltwater and let the matrix soak. the reason i was asking though is because i want to use it in a tank setup with no filtration other than the biofiltration and water changes. i have done this in a 1 gallon pico that has been up for about a year and 3 months now and it even had a yellow clown goby in it for about a year until i moved it to my main tank about a month ago. but it had sand and a rock structure i made as the filtration. i just wanted to boost the biofiltration with the denitrate in the new tank im thinking about. another idea i had was to use sand as the substrate and make a rock structure out of pond matrix (still the same stuff just even larger size).


well like jenn said most canister filters use those ceramic rings/noodles which only utilize the surface for bacterial growth where as matrix is completely pourous all the way through and can house bacteria throughout its structure.



imo giving it a lot of flow might not be the best idea. the whole purpose of it is to provide a place for anaerobic bacteria and they need a lack of oxygen to survive and excessive flow would introduce more oxygen into the inside of the structure of it. now obviously its not going to get all the way inside before the aerobic bacteria consume all the o2 unless you're using a mag 9 to push water through a reactor with matrix in it lol but it will cut down on the usable space for the anarobic bacteria and may cause a noticable decrease in denitrification.

The floating "problem has only been a problem when first installed. Once the inner volumes saturate with water, they sink. Deitrate product itslef has a suggested flow rate through it. Thats the difference between that, Matrix, and Pond Matrix. Flow through it for maximum benefit.

McPhock;863480 wrote: No, no, I should have been more clear.

My canister filters all use sintered glass, like this:
http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/biological/substratpro">http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/biological/substratpro</a>

Matrix is exact same idea (extremely porous material capable of supporting high bacterial loads), and in fact, even compares itself to Substrat Pro. The extra magic that Denitrate supposedly throws in is that the difference in particle porosity permits anaerobic bacteria to grow that remove nitrate in addition to aerobically removing nitrite and ammonia. The Nitrate portion is where I think they're pulling a bit of marketing magic.

I don't doubt that this product, or any other porous surface can house bacteria that will remove nitrite and ammonia. I'd like to see what the real world results are of using matrix versus another porous biological media in strict nitrate reduction.[/QUOTE]

That product itself seems very akin to matrix/denitrate. However, most "biological" media does not have the porosity of these products. So most biological media only accommodates aerobic bacteria. Very similar to bio balls. Aerobic as all getout, but as a result; "nitrate factories". However, the REAL factor with it is flow. More does not equal better. There needs to be calculated flow to allow for the anaerobic conditions.

 

[picoreefguy]

jmaneyapanda;863488 wrote: The floating "problem has only been a problem when first installed. Once the inner volumes saturate with water, they sink.

yea i only keep it in a media bag or container until it all sinks then i take it out and put it wherever its going to go.

 

[sewer urchin]

Hey man,
Would there be an issue the pores getting clogged up. I noticed the Seachem Rep said that if used in a reactor, to shake the reactor every so often to remove the detritus. You know I bet Sunday may be the perfect day to get that answer ;-)

 

[picoreefguy]

not sure if clogging would be a problem in a small tank with a larger tank i could see it but the tank im planning on building is only gonna be 3.74 gallons so i wont be feeding it much and if any detritus does build up i can simply stir (or shake if i decide to go the rock structure route) and then do a nice 50% wc lol. oh by the way ben thanks for loaning me the controller and timer. i haven't set anything up yet but the timer only has one out let and i need to control two pumps so ill bring it back to you on sunday. and if you end up needing the controller back before i get mine just gimme a call and ill bring it back to you