Help! All the fish are dead...

[savingnemo754]

The powerhead was a maxi-jet 1200 with a mod kit on it. When she plugged it back in after raising the water level high enough it got out of balance and sheared the propeller off.

And as for the Cloudiness I am taking some micro bacteria from Brightwell that I have here to hopefully get the balance back.

 

[dakota9]

mysterybox;334992 wrote: what usually makes a tank cloudy besides sand thrashing around, ummm, bacteria bloom?

Those are definately not the only things to cause cloudy water.........

One would hope that theres enough bacteria in the LR, and sand to sustain a tank. Do we really think cleaning or changing the media in a canister filter can create a problem like this?


Whose ran a canister filter on their tank for any length of time? I'd just think that if this were the issue, I'd have crash before as my media was continuosly being replaced with clean/new media for YEARS! I started SW tanks in 1986. I didn't get my first sump until 2 years ago.And were talking about a 30g long tank. Come on guys......... This aint the answer!

 

[savingnemo754]

blu_devl_06;335004 wrote: oh, and yes, I use tapwater!!:tongue2:

You should be ashamed of yourself! LMAO:lol2:

I have use well water for years with no problems, but I did have it tested by a lab before I started using it.

 

[dakota9]

blu_devl_06;335004 wrote: I havea fluval 405 canister that I clean weekly. I rinse my pads every week as well as my carbon, which I will soon be changing to phosguard, and rise about 1/4 of my bio media. I know a lot of people make fun of us can people:roll:, but I'd put money on the fact that my water is just as clean clear as any other. Water has been tested weekly and remains perfect! oh, and yes, I use tapwater!!:tongue2:

Sumps aren't as intergral as some folks believe, and as far as tap water goes....... I've kept marine aquaria for 23 years on and off, but I've only been using RO water for the past...........3 months!

If you know what you're doing, and act quickly when a problems arrise, you can deviate from what is accepted truths </em>in this hobby.....

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Linda Lee;334999 wrote: As far as how quickly outside contaminants can kill.

Well... IMO, pretty darn quickly.

One 12g nano at the school + contaminant introduced by a student = instant death

Teacher is 99.9% certain the contaminant was soap. And it was a small enough amount that although the water clouded up when it was introduced, it dissipated quickly.

Almost everything died immediately.

We also lost our first GDM eel when we installed one of those oil-diffusing air fresheners too near his 54g tank. He was as right as rain that day and less than 24 hours later, he was dead. Those things leave a film on the surface of the water which (we thought) probably hindered the exchange of oxygen.

How are they sure is was soap?

This is EXACTLY my point. What killed the GDM? Was it that a toxic chemical in the air freshener poisoned the animal, and caused organs to fail and death? Or that it blocked oxygen exchange and the moray asphyxiated? That is two ENTIRELY different reasonings and causes for death.

IMO, people are comparing apples and shoelaces here. No one is saying canister filters are bad, and the fact that someone, somewhere has used them before, and cleaned out the media frequently does not mean anything. Are all tanks equal?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Dakota9;335003 wrote: Those are definately not the only things to cause cloudy water.........

One would hope that theres enough bacteria in the LR, and sand to sustain a tank. Do we really think cleaning or changing the media in a canister filter can create a problem like this?


Whose ran a canister filter on their tank for any length of time? I'd just think that if this were the issue, I'd have crash before as my media was continuosly being replaced with clean/new media for YEARS! I started SW tanks in 1986. I didn't get my first sump until 2 years ago.And were talking about a 30g long tank. Come on guys......... This aint the answer!

Cloudy water is one of the preminent signs of ammonia laden water.

 

[seedless reefer]

I feel pretty sure the GDM died from oxygen exchange but whatever death is death. It doesn't matter how contamination kills.

 

[jennm]

I said canisters are bad. Well, specifically, not recommended, and I maintain that they are not ideal for marine tanks - otherwise the majority would use them instead of spending hundreds on sumps/pumps/skimmers...

But I digress.

I've also seen tanks that "look fine" whose parameters were a mess.

Cloudy could be a variety of things. Something could have spawned, pooped... OR it could be a bacterial bloom, algae bloom or other variables.

I doubt a broken powerhead impeller was the cause - now if the epoxy that encases the motor melted (from windings overheated a la Rio) - *that* could/would do it but that does not seem to be the case here.

Jenn

 

[ralph atl]

canister are really not recommended as sold out of the box for reef tanks, true. However, if used to hold carbon, gfo, purigen, zeo, whatever, than they can be very useful, imho.


anyway, the point of this thread was that we have a tank full of dead fish that were inadvertently killed off by cleaning the biological filter with ro water.

I would venture to state (all assumptions), that if I cleaned my canister weekly & thoroughly, then my biological filter was maintained in my rock & sand. This is a fairly new setup, and the majority of the biological filtration was in the canister.

 

[jennm]

OP said that ONE of the 2 filters was cleaned with RO. I still maintain that this alone was not enough to cause a die-off.

As we said 2 pages ago *g* we'll probably never know exactly what did it. Theories abound, but unless the OP or tank owner has an "AHA!" moment and can pinpoint something that may have been done or went wrong, it will remain a mystery, IMO.

Jenn

 

[dakota9]

JennM;335103 wrote: OP said that ONE of the 2 filters was cleaned with RO. I still maintain that this alone was not enough to cause a die-off.
Jenn

Completely agree! Also, I've never, ever seen ammonia spike and subside, and then a nitrite spike that would begin to disapate in the time needed for the theory to work.

Just to clarify my use of canisters, I ran a Rena filstar AND a magnum 350 on my 30g for a while, hated the filstar, changed to two Magums until I realized that was just over kill, and went back to one magnum. Personally, even being a huge fan of canisters, I'd opt for alternative methods on anything larger than a 75 gallon tank.

At the time I was using the filstar, I did notice that the media never really got all that dirty, not compared to the Magnums which was always repleat with gunk. Although easily operated, the Filstar doesn't really remove wastes from the water very effeciently in my findings.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

WOW. I am already sick of this thread.

Fine, it was mustard gas, or fairy dust then. Thats the only reasonable explanation, being she found nitrite in the tank water.:doh:

Take it easy all, and good luck nemo.

 

[linda lee]

Luckily, it's okay to have differing opinions in a reef club.

So glad egos don't get affected and no one gets their FruitOfTheLooms in a twist.

 

[dannybradley]

Dakota9;335109 wrote:
Just to clarify my use of canisters, I ran a Rena filstar AND a magnum 350 on my 30g for a while, hated the filstar, changed to two Magums until I realized that was just over kill, and went back to one magnum. Personally, even being a huge fan of canisters, I'd opt for alternative methods on anything larger than a 75 gallon tank.

At the time I was using the filstar, I did notice that the media never really got all that dirty, not compared to the Magnums which was always repleat with gunk. Although easily operated, the Filstar doesn't really remove wastes from the water very effeciently in my findings.

You're actually supporting my theory with that arguement. Magnum filters are great mechanical and chemical filters. They are horrible biological filters. Because you were constantly changing the media, the majority of the bacteria lived inside your rock and on your sand. Turning your tank volume over more than 10x/hour(350gph on a 30g tank) you had plenty of circulation to provide good filtration with live rock. Apples and shoelaces.

We're dealing with a larger tank that was only turning over several times an hour, with a much smaller surface area. I believe that destroying half of the biological media in a system like that could lead to a disaster.

Apples and shoelaces. You can't use a different setup as a strong basis for example when it's not the exact same setup.

 

[fish scales2]

JennM;334970 wrote: Any new saltwater not mixed/aged enough can test positive for ammonia.

Back in the dark ages when I began in this hobby you *HAD* to mix the water at least 24 hours without fail (more was better) or you risked a major ammonia spike.

Nowadays it's not so much, many formulas can be "ready to pour" in fairly short order but there is some minimal risk even today. I don't know many that test their NSW for ammonia though.

Jenn

You scare me with "many formulas" "ready to pour" and "minimal risk" and I do know and encourage testing of thier NSW. How do remove those chemicals from your system? Wont they build up over time? You know we have come along way since the dark ages. Although I believe in medications under certian circumstances I do not support the addition of any manmade bacterias and only sell prime for emergency situations. I personally believe if you establish a tank slowly and responsibly then you wont have crashes. Virtually every crash I have seen can be traced back to personal error. Oh yeah Saltwatertesting.com is a great place to send your water for testing and I know many people that have used this service. Water still mixes for 24 hrs by the way as well.

 

[jennm]

Chris, I don't really want to get into a peeing contest with you. For one, I don't have the right equipment. For another, this is not an appropriate venue for it.

I don't agree with everything you suggest, and I don't expect you to agree with everything I suggest. There are many ways to do things in this hobby, and I am respectful of that, and if I challenge something you suggest, I always do it tactfully. I am asking and expecting the same of you, please.

There are many different salt formulas on the market, that's a fact. It's also a fact that "back in the day" when I started in this hobby, it was common knowledge that newly mixed artificial seawater contained ammonia until it was properly aged. Nowadays, salt mix "ages" much more quickly. I still prefer to age water. That's "just me". I also encourage people who buy water at my shop and store it, to mix and aerate it prior to use. Some do, some don't - that's up to them.

I, too, encourage people to check their new saltwater before using it, although surprisingly many do not. In particular, some who purchase pre-made saltwater at a LFS do not check its specific gravity, let alone pH or any other parameter. I've seen too many people accidentally either buy or use the "wrong" water (IE RO instead of saltwater) and have a panic when they realize the error after the fact. At the bare minimum, they should at least make sure it's saltwater if they are doing a water change, and fresh if they are just topping off.

I concur that most wipe-outs are due to "user error" - so I don't think there's an argument to be had there.

I'm also not a big fan of bottled products intended to cycle tanks - live rock does a better job at that coupled with patience. So I'm not sure why you are picking flies with me there. I do sell Seachem Stability but I don't recall saying that it was a recommendation for this individual (although I think somebody suggested a bacterial supplement - it was not me.) Stability has its applications, IMO more so for freshwater, but that's a whole other discussion.

And I too, support patience when setting up and maintaining a tank, so again, I'm not sure why you are calling me out on that practice.

As far as modern salt mixes not needing the same aging process as back in the day, there are plenty of threads/articles about it. Here's one with a poll:

https://www.3reef.com/forums/salt/how-long-do-you-let-salt-water-age-before-using-48766.html">https://www.3reef.com/forums/salt/how-long-do-you-let-salt-water-age-before-using-48766.html</a>

Most who responded do not age their water at all, and those reporting claim no ill effects. Take from that what you wish - I still prefer aged water - it fits with my aged self.

Respectfully,

Jenn

 

[fish scales2]

I respect your point of view and am by no means trying to be disrespectful. I stated my opinion and was hoping for a little education that might help me and my understandings of how then to remove your said "Ready to pour and many formulas" as I thought they might build up over time. I have always dealt with chlorine by allowing it to dissipate naturally or by use of ro.

I have found this thread to be educational in many ways.

Jenn I find it worderful to have you back on the boards with all your input and points of view. I have not said you were wrong in any way as others have yet you think I am calling you out. Not my intentions.



Saving Nemo, hope all goes well, if you will bring me a little water I will send to have tested at a lab so we can see if there is another contaminent that none of us are able to test for.

 

[jennm]

Apologies if I misunderstood - the phrase, "You scare me" gave me that impression, so no worries if I didn't "hear" as you intended.

I do think perhaps you misunderstood the post I made that prompted that reply. Hopefully my explanation in my preceding post clarifies that.

Chris, I do have a question though. If water is sent away to a lab, how can that be done without the sample degrading? IME, if a sample is old, results can be skewed. Once I had a customer provide me with a sample that gave totally unexpected results (based on my knowledge of his tank) - and I joked and asked if he'd collected it 3 days ago - and he HAD collected it three days prior (or thereabouts)...

While some parameters won't change with time in a sealed specimen cup, some will - like pH. I'm just interested to learn how a sample is stabilized so that the lab results are an accurate reflection of the parameters, if it takes time to send it away.

Cheers,
Jenn

 

[fish scales2]

The results would reflect contaminents or non organic matters that may have entered the water column. Possibly telling us if the "grassy knoll" theory is acurate and if so what it was. MAYBE

 

[jennm]

Ah Well that would be a good idea then.

Jenn