MH bulbs, are they all created equally?

[ga_daisy]

Found what sounds and looks like a good deal on MH 400W 20K single ended bulbs, BUT.....

Is there truly a difference in quality from one manufacturer to another? Is there really a difference between a $125 bulb and a $60 bulb?

I know with many things, you do get what you pay for but.....a good example of one is the same as the other is generic drugs vs brand or regular household batteries Duracel vs CVS brand.

Am I really saving money buying a cheaper bulb or will this cost me more money in the long run by not lasting or buying causing some funky weirdness in my system.

 

[sharkbait]

Huge difference. Look at a ushio 20k then a radium 20k....Needless to say yes different MH bulbs are created differently. I run two 400w radiums and love them to death.

 

[ga_daisy]

Whats the diff? Why do you like one over the other so much?

 

[merkywater]

Par levels have been tested on both and Radiums produce more Par in the 20K bulbs from what I understand

 

[cr500_af]

A lot of the real cheap (eBay) bulbs have bad color variations. I've heard of it a lot, and seen it once. The guy ordered 14Ks, and one was about 10K in color... the other was, I swear, GREEN.

 

[acroholic]

This has always been true for me regarding buying reefing equipment: buy cheap (as in low quality) and you buy twice. If price is you only criteria, then chances are you are not buying quality.

There is a difference in metal halide bulbs. But more expensive doesn't always equal better. Each metal halide bulb will have a different rendition, or how they look when they fire up. I assume you know what Kelvin temperatures are regarding bulbs? One manufacturer's 20K bulb looks different than another. And the ballast you use to fire that halide bulb can affect how it looks as well. And the reflector you choose determines how much of that light goes down into the tank.

Personally, I would evaluate each of the main components in a halide lighting system separately, meaning bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors, then choose what I like the best from available products in each category. I did this by looking at a lot of tank threads here and on Reef Central, especially Tank of the Month threads, where people do a detailed listing of their equipment. What I found then, and it is still true for me today, is that some of the best halide equipment, as in either quality or their ability to give you great colors in your coral are:

Reflectors: CoralVue LumenBright Mini/Large/Wide reflectors and pendants, Lumenmax Elite reflectors. Your choice depends on your tank size and canopy/no canopy factors .

Ballasts: Coralvue e-ballasts, Galaxy and Lumatek e-ballasts, IceCap e-ballasts (Icecap is OOB now), and PFO magnetic Ballasts (PFO is OOB now).

Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 SE/DE 14K, Helios 250/400 20K. There are other halide bulbs in lower Kelvin range, but they require some type of actinic supplementation. The above halide bulbs have enough blue in them (IMO) that they do not require any blue supplementation.

The above list is not meant to be the de facto recommendation. Others may think differently. The above equipment was what I saw other reefers using that had the kind of colors in their corals that I wanted.

My lighting choice for all three of my reef tanks are Coralvue LumenBright pendants, Coralvue e-ballasts, and Radium bulbs in either 250 or 400 watt. Radium bulbs can be purchased from one ARC Sponsor for as low as $70 each.

 

[ralph atl]

Acroholic;614046 wrote: This has always been true for me regarding buying reefing equipment: buy cheap (as in low quality) and you buy twice. If price is you only criteria, then chances are you are not buying quality.

There is a difference in metal halide bulbs. But more expensive doesn't always equal better. Each metal halide bulb will have a different rendition, or how they look when they fire up. I assume you know what Kelvin temperatures are regarding bulbs? One manufacturer's 20K bulb looks different than another. And the ballast you use to fire that halide bulb can affect how it looks as well. And the reflector you choose determines how much of that light goes down into the tank.

Personally, I would evaluate each of the main components in a halide lighting system separately, meaning bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors, then choose what I like the best from available products in each category. I did this by looking at a lot of tank threads here and on Reef Central, especially Tank of the Month threads, where people do a detailed listing of their equipment. What I found then, and it is still true for me today, is that some of the best halide equipment, as in either quality or their ability to give you great colors in your coral are:

Reflectors: CoralVue LumenBright Mini/Large/Wide reflectors and pendants, Lumenmax Elite reflectors. Your choice depends on your tank size and canopy/no canopy factors .

Ballasts: Coralvue e-ballasts, Galaxy and Lumatek e-ballasts, IceCap e-ballasts (Icecap is OOB now), and PFO magnetic Ballasts (PFO is OOB now).

Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 DE 20K, Helios 250/400 20K. There are other halide bulbs in lower Kelvin range, but they require some type of actinic supplementation. The above halide bulbs have enough blue in them (IMO) that they do not require any blue supplementation.

The above list is not meant to be the de facto recommendation. Others may think differently. The above equipment was what I saw other reefers using that had the kind of colors in their corals that I wanted.

My lighting choice for all three of my reef tanks are Coralvue LumenBright pendants, Coralvue e-ballasts, and Radium bulbs in either 250 or 400 watt. Radium bulbs can be purchased from one ARC Sponsor for as low as $70 each.

pretty much in agreement here.

:up:

 

[grouper therapy]

Acroholic;614046 wrote: This has always been true for me regarding buying reefing equipment: buy cheap (as in low quality) and you buy twice. If price is you only criteria, then chances are you are not buying quality.

There is a difference in metal halide bulbs. But more expensive doesn't always equal better. Each metal halide bulb will have a different rendition, or how they look when they fire up. I assume you know what Kelvin temperatures are regarding bulbs? One manufacturer's 20K bulb looks different than another. And the ballast you use to fire that halide bulb can affect how it looks as well. And the reflector you choose determines how much of that light goes down into the tank.

Personally, I would evaluate each of the main components in a halide lighting system separately, meaning bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors, then choose what I like the best from available products in each category. I did this by looking at a lot of tank threads here and on Reef Central, especially Tank of the Month threads, where people do a detailed listing of their equipment. What I found then, and it is still true for me today, is that some of the best halide equipment, as in either quality or their ability to give you great colors in your coral are:

Reflectors: CoralVue LumenBright Mini/Large/Wide reflectors and pendants, Lumenmax Elite reflectors. Your choice depends on your tank size and canopy/no canopy factors .

Ballasts: Coralvue e-ballasts, Galaxy and Lumatek e-ballasts, IceCap e-ballasts (Icecap is OOB now), and PFO magnetic Ballasts (PFO is OOB now).

Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 DE 20K, Helios 250/400 20K. There are other halide bulbs in lower Kelvin range, but they require some type of actinic supplementation. The above halide bulbs have enough blue in them (IMO) that they do not require any blue supplementation.

The above list is not meant to be the de facto recommendation. Others may think differently. The above equipment was what I saw other reefers using that had the kind of colors in their corals that I wanted.

My lighting choice for all three of my reef tanks are Coralvue LumenBright pendants, Coralvue e-ballasts, and Radium bulbs in either 250 or 400 watt. Radium bulbs can be purchased from one ARC Sponsor for as low as $70 each.

Good job!

 

[texhorns98]

I have 15K "ebay bulbs" that are bright as all get out, but really quite white. I plan on getting 20K quality bulbs soon.

 

[merkywater]

Acroholic;614046 wrote: This has always been true for me regarding buying reefing equipment: buy cheap (as in low quality) and you buy twice. If price is you only criteria, then chances are you are not buying quality.

There is a difference in metal halide bulbs. But more expensive doesn't always equal better. Each metal halide bulb will have a different rendition, or how they look when they fire up. I assume you know what Kelvin temperatures are regarding bulbs? One manufacturer's 20K bulb looks different than another. And the ballast you use to fire that halide bulb can affect how it looks as well. And the reflector you choose determines how much of that light goes down into the tank.

Personally, I would evaluate each of the main components in a halide lighting system separately, meaning bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors, then choose what I like the best from available products in each category. I did this by looking at a lot of tank threads here and on Reef Central, especially Tank of the Month threads, where people do a detailed listing of their equipment. What I found then, and it is still true for me today, is that some of the best halide equipment, as in either quality or their ability to give you great colors in your coral are:

Reflectors: CoralVue LumenBright Mini/Large/Wide reflectors and pendants, Lumenmax Elite reflectors. Your choice depends on your tank size and canopy/no canopy factors .

Ballasts: Coralvue e-ballasts, Galaxy and Lumatek e-ballasts, IceCap e-ballasts (Icecap is OOB now), and PFO magnetic Ballasts (PFO is OOB now).

Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 DE 20K, Helios 250/400 20K. There are other halide bulbs in lower Kelvin range, but they require some type of actinic supplementation. The above halide bulbs have enough blue in them (IMO) that they do not require any blue supplementation.

The above list is not meant to be the de facto recommendation. Others may think differently. The above equipment was what I saw other reefers using that had the kind of colors in their corals that I wanted.

My lighting choice for all three of my reef tanks are Coralvue LumenBright pendants, Coralvue e-ballasts, and Radium bulbs in either 250 or 400 watt. Radium bulbs can be purchased from one ARC Sponsor for as low as $70 each.

Great job at explaining it!

 

[cr500_af]

Acroholic;614046 wrote:
Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 DE 20K, Helios 250/400 20K.

I wasn't aware Phoenix made a 20K 250 DE... and Google turns up 14K only. Do they actually make those? If so I may have found my next bulbs.

 

[acroholic]

cr500_af;614086 wrote: I wasn't aware Phoenix made a 20K 250 DE... and Google turns up 14K only. Do they actually make those? If so I may have found my next bulbs.

My error...Phoenix only makes a 250 watt 14K DE/SE. They also make a 150 watt DE.

 

[cr500_af]

Acroholic;614090 wrote: My error...Phoenix only makes a 250 watt 14K DE/SE. They also make a 150 watt DE..

Curses, foiled again!

 

[raisedonnintendo]

Ya phoenix 14k is my runner up bulb to. I get radium just cause there is not a Phoenix yet. On the 20k that is.

 

[ga_daisy]

Thanks guys....

Was HOPING to be told something other than what I already knew....:doh:

I've really let my tank go over the last 4-6 months and am paying the price now. I had really nice coraline and all of my corals were buzzing right along. BUT.....I flaked and now have green hair algae, green slime algae and my big beautiful montis are dead (amongst other corals). I'm trying to get things back in line and get the calcium levels up.....I've dramatically increased water flow, had Jenny with Blue Planet come out and give it a good cleaning and a big water change, I've added back to my cleanup crew. I know my bulbs are ready for a change.....but I'm getting to the jumping off point of the funds.

I've been cruising the frags for sale threads, but know that I've gotta FOCUS on the not so pretty stuff and get a handle on things before adding anything to the system.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;614046 wrote: This has always been true for me regarding buying reefing equipment: buy cheap (as in low quality) and you buy twice. If price is you only criteria, then chances are you are not buying quality.

There is a difference in metal halide bulbs. But more expensive doesn't always equal better. Each metal halide bulb will have a different rendition, or how they look when they fire up. I assume you know what Kelvin temperatures are regarding bulbs? One manufacturer's 20K bulb looks different than another. And the ballast you use to fire that halide bulb can affect how it looks as well. And the reflector you choose determines how much of that light goes down into the tank.

Personally, I would evaluate each of the main components in a halide lighting system separately, meaning bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors, then choose what I like the best from available products in each category. I did this by looking at a lot of tank threads here and on Reef Central, especially Tank of the Month threads, where people do a detailed listing of their equipment. What I found then, and it is still true for me today, is that some of the best halide equipment, as in either quality or their ability to give you great colors in your coral are:

Reflectors: CoralVue LumenBright Mini/Large/Wide reflectors and pendants, Lumenmax Elite reflectors. Your choice depends on your tank size and canopy/no canopy factors .

Ballasts: Coralvue e-ballasts, Galaxy and Lumatek e-ballasts, IceCap e-ballasts (Icecap is OOB now), and PFO magnetic Ballasts (PFO is OOB now).

Bulbs: Radium 250 or 400 watt (all Radiums are 20K), Phoenix 250 SE/DE 14K, Helios 250/400 20K. There are other halide bulbs in lower Kelvin range, but they require some type of actinic supplementation. The above halide bulbs have enough blue in them (IMO) that they do not require any blue supplementation.

The above list is not meant to be the de facto recommendation. Others may think differently. The above equipment was what I saw other reefers using that had the kind of colors in their corals that I wanted.

My lighting choice for all three of my reef tanks are Coralvue LumenBright pendants, Coralvue e-ballasts, and Radium bulbs in either 250 or 400 watt. Radium bulbs can be purchased from one ARC Sponsor for as low as $70 each.

The only comment I'll make about this is that I've read that the 400 radium look bad on a standard 400 coralvue ballast. The radium looks best when overdriven to 110% or hqi on the CV ballast. With a set 400, it's often pink.

I've never tried a radium in my setup for this reason (I don't have dimmables or hqi). Reeflux for me.

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;614111 wrote: The only comment I'll make about this is that I've read that the 400 radium look bad on a standard 400 coralvue ballast. The radium looks best when overdriven to 110% or hqi on the CV ballast. With a set 400, it's often pink.

I've never tried a radium in my setup for this reason (I don't have dimmables or hqi). Reeflux for me.

My 300 gallon SPS tank is driven by this exact combination of 400 watt Radiums on CoralVue e-ballasts driven at the standard rate. My ballasts are dimmable but I use them at the 400 watt output level. I couldn't disagree more about them looking bad, but that is really a matter of personal like or dislike. I don't like Reeflux because they are too white for me. I like the bluer light the Radiums give.

But a large factor for me was that I do not want to supplement my halide lighting with T5. I'm sure Reeflux gives a good light, but if I used them I would have to supplement with blue T5s to get the rendition I wanted.

 

[ichthyoid]

Sharkbait;614032 wrote: Huge difference. Look at a ushio 20k then a radium 20k....Needless to say yes different MH bulbs are created differently. I run two 400w radiums and love them to death.

JMHO, but don't judge a book by it's cover, or a bulb by it's color, unless all you care about is aesthetics (ie-your perception/preference).

Ushio happens to make one of the better bulbs in terms of color fidelity/reproduction and PAR. Their 10K bulb may not be your cup of tea, but the CRI is 90 (an objective indication of color fidelity/reproduction).

The Ushio bulbs have very impressive PAR, and can be supplemented with actinic to get a bluer look. It's just a matter of what you want. Most of us want good PAR with a particular appearance. There are different ways to achieve it. Just look at all of the brand's and color temperature's of bulbs available, as proof. The high color temperature bulbs (~20K) tend to suffer from lower PAR, so many people use higher wattage to compensate for that.

What I want is:
1) fast growth/high PAR
2) a pleasing appearance, which includes all colors reproduced accurately.

My thinking is that we need to balance what is good for the corals, with what looks good to us.

 

[acroholic]

ichthyoid;614140 wrote: JMHO, but don't judge a book by it's cover, or a bulb by it's color, unless all you care about is aesthetics (ie-your perception/preference).

Ushio happens to make one of the better bulbs in terms of color fidelity/reproduction and PAR. Their 10K bulb may not be your cup of tea, but the CRI is 90 (an objective indication of color fidelity/reproduction).

The Ushio bulbs have very impressive PAR, and can be supplemented with actinic to get a bluer look. It's just a matter of what you want. Most of us want good PAR with a particular appearance. There are different ways to achieve it. Just look at all of the brand's and color temperature's of bulbs available, as proof. The high color temperature bulbs (~20K) tend to suffer from lower PAR, so many people use higher wattage to compensate for that.

What I want is:
1) fast growth/high PAR
2) a pleasing appearance, which includes all colors reproduced accurately.

My thinking is that we need to balance what is good for the corals, with what looks good to us.

Bill's post shows there are many ways to the same objective, and it all depends on how you want to go about it.

Say you are lighting a 4 foot, 120 gallon SPS tank.

You could use two Ushio 250 10K halide bulbs and get excellent PAR, but their rendition would probably be too yellow and need blue supplementation, so you supplement with four 54 watt T5HO actinics.

So you have 2x 250 halides and 4x54 watt T5s for 716 watts total. Two halide bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors to buy, along with two twin bulb T5 fixtures and bulbs to buy as well. All these bulbs need replacing so, factor that cost in as well.

Another option is two 400 watt halides with Radium or some other 20K bulbs. 800 watts total. Good PAR and nice rendition. Two ballasts, bulbs, and reflectors to buy and replace. You use 84 watts of electricity more, but your bulb replacement cost is far less. Cost of purchase is far less because there is little extra cost of buying a 400 watt halide bulb over a 250, or a 400 watt ballast over a 250, and the reflector cost is the same. No T5 fixtures to buy and no T5 bulbs to by or replace either.

Lots of different things to consider, but I have mostly the same objectives as Bill stated.

 

[ichthyoid]

Exactly. Thanks Dave.

Another thing I did consider was lamp life. The Ushio 10k only loses ~15% output after 6,000 hours of operation. Based on an 8 hour per day burn, that is 2 years. This will help offset the added cost of more bulbs.
My research of MH shows that the higher Kelvin bulbs lose output much sooner, in general.

The 4 x T-5's will run about $80 per year. The bulb cost (MH + T-5's) will be around $10 per month of operation. The power will cost about $0.70 per day, or $21 per month. Total for lighting, about a buck a day.

MH bulbs do experience a color (red) shift, but from my reading this appears to correlate to their output. I believe this to be do to greater loss in the shorter/higher energy wavelength's (blue end of the spectrum). The literature and physics is in agreement. In theory, I will replace the bulbs most often (T-5's) that have the most phosphors that degrade the soonest. We will see.

By using 2 banks of 2 x 54 watt T-5's, and moonlight LED's, I can do a nice job of simmulating sunrise/sunset effects. The T-5's will be overdriven by 20%, so I will actually use about 760 watts total. The 2 x T-5 banks will come on 2 and 1 hours before, and go off 1 and 2 hours after the halides. The total photoperiod will be 12 hours.

What I am aiming to get is a well balanced spectrum, a low total cost of ownership, with enough actinic to get some of that 'POP' that I saw in Dave's corals. :yes: