My Powder Brown Tang just died...
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Back to the first question you posed.
http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/cyanide.html">http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/cyanide.html</a>
[IMG]http://www.marinefauna-cebu.com/cyn.html">http://www.marinefauna-cebu.com/cyn.html</a>
As much as some people want to aviod this topic, they should not.
Not trying to stir the pot but you get what you pay for.
http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/cyanide.html">http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/cyanide.html</a>
[IMG]http://www.marinefauna-cebu.com/cyn.html">http://www.marinefauna-cebu.com/cyn.html</a>
As much as some people want to aviod this topic, they should not.
Not trying to stir the pot but you get what you pay for.
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Where did you buy the fish at?
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Yes it would be fair to know if they came from the same store. If they came from 2 different stores you may want to ask each store where they purchased their fish from and if the same then you may locate a cause maybe shipping perhaps or something that may have stressed the fish out. I have purchased fish from one store and every fish that I bought from them died. I did not know if it was on my account so I quite buying from them and I have never had a fish die from anyone else. On that same note Tangs as you know are hard fish to acclimate. You may think it has acclimated but sometimes you just cant count on them making it just part of reality. I would try again just take you time and hope for the best.
Where I think it would be fair is if there is consistancy in fish dieing from a certain sponsor that the sponsor should take action and make a change in where they purchase their livestock. Some sponsors purchase from more than one place and if they find out that other sponsor are having issues from the same place then they could limit their purchase from them and save us a headache from throwing money down a toilet. Also, fish sometimes just dont make it and we have to live with that case.
I don't mean to thread jack... and first before I forget - test your heater - turn it on and leave it on and test for voltage (be sure to return it to its normal setting afterward, if no voltage)
Now - back to that quote of yours.
I hate to say it, Craig, but it's STILL a huge problem.
To my knowledge, there is no CDT in place anywhere (cyanide detection test) and there has been much argument about the hows and wherefores because a fish will pee away all the evidence of cyanide within 24 hours.
Those tests effectively involve putting the test fish in a blender... so it's not like every fish that came in could be tested - but that's another point.
Plenty of spin-doctors in the industry would like you to believe that the cyanide issue has gone away... not even close.
Not every specie from the areas where cyanide is used, is caught that way - for example, mandarin dragonets and dartfishes are never caught with cyanide.
I'm not making any assumptions either way concerning your specimens - I'm just pointing out that if anyone thinks that cyanide-caught fish aren't making it to the US market, they are sadly mistaken. Of course every wholesaler and transhipper etc., will swear on anything you hold holy, that all of *their* fish are net caught, some are truthful and some are lying, period.
It's tough to discern sometimes - as retailers the best thing we can do is choose suppliers that we have come to trust through experience. There isn't anyone, anywhere who can guarantee that every one of their wild caught fish weren't caught with cyanide.
Unfortunately it's the industry's "dirty little secret" and I have been very outspoken about it over the years. If people think the problem has gone away, then I haven't spoken loudly enough about it lately.
Again - for clarity - I'm not making any accusations or assumptions about the source of your fish, and whether this was an issue in their demise - I just couldn't let your comments pass without letting you and other readers know that it still is and always has been, a serious problem in the industry. Philippines and Indonesia are the worst offenders. Not all divers in those countries use juice... but that's where it happens. There are plenty of other countries where divers do not use these methods, as well as Hawaii.
And yes, sometimes the difference between a cheap fish, and a more expensive one of the same specie, can be where it came from and how it was caught. A Marshall Island Flame Angel, for example, costs more than an Indo one (at least at the wholesale level)... but the Marshall ones (usually have better color) live, and the PI/Indo ones... well ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances.
Sometimes, the bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweet price is forgotten.
I'll get off my soap box now...
Jenn
Also, since you expressed concern that this may be your issue, from what I understand a cyanide-caught fish suffers digestive system damage that can certainly kill it, but not that suddenly. I hope Jenn or Chris will chime in if I'm wrong, since I don't want to be a "I heard..." kind of guy. My understanding of that damage is you end up with a fish that stops eating and starves, obviously not what happened to yours.
Well, since the can of worms is open..
Again - my references here don't necessarily refer to what happened to Craig's fish. I'm speaking in generalities here as this thread veers a bit off topic...
If it's done "right", a juiced fish can live 25 years. Of course that doesn't help the coral head that died from the cyanide, or the other flora and fauna...
Unfortunately, in many (most?) cases, liver damage is done, and eventually the fish either becomes emaciated (and not due to internal worms) and dies, or in plenty of cases, they just drop dead with no warning.
Over the years I've heard it suggested that cyanide caught fish "appear more colorful" and are calmer/less stressed and as such, may appear more attractive. I don't know about that but I've heard it from more than one person in the trade.
If you have a copy of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist (the original edition with the flame angel on the cover)... go to page 165. There's a whole chapter on cyanide collection.
Peter Rubec, who is quoted in the chapter, is a friend of mine. You can find Peter on Reefs.org, "The Industry Behind the Hobby" where his user name is PeterIMA.
I encourage everyone to read that chapter.
And Craig... have you tested for voltage yet?
Jenn
Again - my references here don't necessarily refer to what happened to Craig's fish. I'm speaking in generalities here as this thread veers a bit off topic...
If it's done "right", a juiced fish can live 25 years. Of course that doesn't help the coral head that died from the cyanide, or the other flora and fauna...
Unfortunately, in many (most?) cases, liver damage is done, and eventually the fish either becomes emaciated (and not due to internal worms) and dies, or in plenty of cases, they just drop dead with no warning.
Over the years I've heard it suggested that cyanide caught fish "appear more colorful" and are calmer/less stressed and as such, may appear more attractive. I don't know about that but I've heard it from more than one person in the trade.
If you have a copy of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist (the original edition with the flame angel on the cover)... go to page 165. There's a whole chapter on cyanide collection.
Peter Rubec, who is quoted in the chapter, is a friend of mine. You can find Peter on Reefs.org, "The Industry Behind the Hobby" where his user name is PeterIMA.
I encourage everyone to read that chapter.
And Craig... have you tested for voltage yet?
Jenn
Thanks for clarifying, Jenn. I learn something new every day, and 75% of the time it seems it's from you.
I had a couple of my first fish die, slowly tapering off and then stopping eating altogether. We discussed it and kinda figured it was "juiced" fish... I never realized they could just kick the bucket suddenly.
Which brings up a question: How long after collection is it safe to say that the liver damage is not present? Meaning, I walk into your store and there is a fish that you have had for a number of weeks. Neither of us were present when it was collected, so let's say a dishonest distributor called it net-caught when it was not.
At how many weeks in your system would you say that this fish is OK from the liver angle?
I guess this is a long-winded way to ask how long it takes liver damage signs to rear their ugly heads.
It's hard to say exactly... and that's why the problem can be so difficult to pinpoint.
I'm sorry to keep this thread sort of off-topic, but since the possibility does exist, and the OP mentioned it, I hope I'll be indulged here because there is useful information to be shared here, even if it may not apply in this instance.
I've had people bring dead fish to me a couple of times over the years, and we've cut them open. Sometimes the liver has "turned to mush" - that definitely raises suspicion.
There's no chemical test that I know of that can determine if the fish was cyanide caught, more than 24 hours after collection as they excrete the evidence. This has been a very hot topic of discussion in industry circles, particularly as it pertains to certain "agencies" who claim to be able to "certify" fish etc. That's a whole other can of worms, for another thread. Since the experts can't even agree on a testing method and/or its accuracy/reliability, there isn't a test available or in place.
On the flip side of that coin, it's also too easy to dismiss an otherwise "unexplainable" death on cyanide. Many of those same fish that are typical cyanide targets, can also just fail to thrive, or don't adjust to captivity - which makes the whole matter even more convoluted.
See - it's often not as simple as it seems, and that's probably another reason why the problem still exists as much as it does.
Back in the 80s when I began in the hobby, it was a HUGE problem because most of the fish in the trade came from PI. I remember being educated about it then, by the LFS that I frequented. He did his best to get clean fish - but even he admitted it was a crap shoot at best.
*Usually* if they are good for a month, IMO, they will survive. Now - there are also a lot of variables there too. Once they are caught, it can take days or weeks to get Stateside. Then once they get to the wholesaler, it can be little time or a while before they are bought by LFS. Good wholesalers feed and rest their fish, in addition to being picky about whom they buy from and where the fish come from, before they resell them to LFS. Good LFS are also picky about the suppliers they use. I know it took me a while to find sources that I trust, and in the beginning I'm sure I had my share of questionable fish - even though I was fed a line about them being all net caught. And if I experience "questionable" deaths, I'm on the phone making a stink about it. Fortunately at this point, I'm pretty confident in my supply chain, but I can no more guarantee anything, than anybody else can. And except for captive raised fish, nobody can guarantee a 100% clean supply.
Like I said, the bottom line is - there's a "trust factor" all along the chain of custody.
Country of origin is a big factor. Stuff from Hawaii, Australia, Marshalls, Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, Palau and others I'm sure I'm forgetting - are not subject to this issue, because they simply do not use cyanide there.
Philippines, Indonesia (Bali, Jakarta...) sometimes suppliers use city names to skip around the country name to avoid red flags... are the ones that one needs to be careful about.
And not all fish that come out of those places may be bad... Ferdinand Cruz has spent 20+ years training divers with nets in those areas, and continues to do so today.
The irony is, a good net diver can out-fish a juicer any day. He just needs the proper tools to do it, and instruction - that's been Ferdie's mission all these years.
The other problem that's existed, is that the middlemen who buy the fish, compel the divers to buy their cyanide... diver doesn't buy their cyanide, the middleman won't buy their fish.
It's illegal - but these places are corrupt. What's a guy to do if he wants to feed his family? These people live in the third world, and we really have no idea what it's like to walk in their shoes... and most people on this side of the world would be shocked an appalled at some of what goes on.
The issue has so many layers... if we simply stopped buying the fish, parts of the economy in those areas would suffer - so the solution is to try to train fisherfolk to do it the right way - the sustainable way.
Again I could go on ad nauseum about it... but I need to get to work - got some tanks to go and clean before I open today.
I do encourage everyone to do some reading and research about it and become a part of the solution.
Jenn
I'm sorry to keep this thread sort of off-topic, but since the possibility does exist, and the OP mentioned it, I hope I'll be indulged here because there is useful information to be shared here, even if it may not apply in this instance.
I've had people bring dead fish to me a couple of times over the years, and we've cut them open. Sometimes the liver has "turned to mush" - that definitely raises suspicion.
There's no chemical test that I know of that can determine if the fish was cyanide caught, more than 24 hours after collection as they excrete the evidence. This has been a very hot topic of discussion in industry circles, particularly as it pertains to certain "agencies" who claim to be able to "certify" fish etc. That's a whole other can of worms, for another thread. Since the experts can't even agree on a testing method and/or its accuracy/reliability, there isn't a test available or in place.
On the flip side of that coin, it's also too easy to dismiss an otherwise "unexplainable" death on cyanide. Many of those same fish that are typical cyanide targets, can also just fail to thrive, or don't adjust to captivity - which makes the whole matter even more convoluted.
See - it's often not as simple as it seems, and that's probably another reason why the problem still exists as much as it does.
Back in the 80s when I began in the hobby, it was a HUGE problem because most of the fish in the trade came from PI. I remember being educated about it then, by the LFS that I frequented. He did his best to get clean fish - but even he admitted it was a crap shoot at best.
*Usually* if they are good for a month, IMO, they will survive. Now - there are also a lot of variables there too. Once they are caught, it can take days or weeks to get Stateside. Then once they get to the wholesaler, it can be little time or a while before they are bought by LFS. Good wholesalers feed and rest their fish, in addition to being picky about whom they buy from and where the fish come from, before they resell them to LFS. Good LFS are also picky about the suppliers they use. I know it took me a while to find sources that I trust, and in the beginning I'm sure I had my share of questionable fish - even though I was fed a line about them being all net caught. And if I experience "questionable" deaths, I'm on the phone making a stink about it. Fortunately at this point, I'm pretty confident in my supply chain, but I can no more guarantee anything, than anybody else can. And except for captive raised fish, nobody can guarantee a 100% clean supply.
Like I said, the bottom line is - there's a "trust factor" all along the chain of custody.
Country of origin is a big factor. Stuff from Hawaii, Australia, Marshalls, Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, Palau and others I'm sure I'm forgetting - are not subject to this issue, because they simply do not use cyanide there.
Philippines, Indonesia (Bali, Jakarta...) sometimes suppliers use city names to skip around the country name to avoid red flags... are the ones that one needs to be careful about.
And not all fish that come out of those places may be bad... Ferdinand Cruz has spent 20+ years training divers with nets in those areas, and continues to do so today.
The irony is, a good net diver can out-fish a juicer any day. He just needs the proper tools to do it, and instruction - that's been Ferdie's mission all these years.
The other problem that's existed, is that the middlemen who buy the fish, compel the divers to buy their cyanide... diver doesn't buy their cyanide, the middleman won't buy their fish.
It's illegal - but these places are corrupt. What's a guy to do if he wants to feed his family? These people live in the third world, and we really have no idea what it's like to walk in their shoes... and most people on this side of the world would be shocked an appalled at some of what goes on.
The issue has so many layers... if we simply stopped buying the fish, parts of the economy in those areas would suffer - so the solution is to try to train fisherfolk to do it the right way - the sustainable way.
Again I could go on ad nauseum about it... but I need to get to work - got some tanks to go and clean before I open today.
I do encourage everyone to do some reading and research about it and become a part of the solution.
Jenn
Surprising that there is no testing for this....in human deaths (I've heard....through watching forensic type documentaries....HBO used to have a wonderful series, When the Dead Talk) there is a smell of almonds. Now....since dead fish smell like.....well dead fish, would that overpower the cyanide smell? Or is it due to the chemistry of the human body that gives off the almond smell?
Hydrocyanic acid indeedly smells like almonds - but the smell of it is very faint unless it it taken orally and somehow preserved in your stomach and mouth.
It is not that the entire body smells like it - unless the person took a bath in that stuff...
(don't ask me how I know)
It is not that the entire body smells like it - unless the person took a bath in that stuff...
(don't ask me how I know)
ahhh.....late night TV, good thing I wasn't trying to....never mind, the exhusband is breathing just fine (or at least he is now that I've released his throat from my death grip)......chuckle chuckle. (relax, I wouldn't kill him, torturing slowly is so much more fun :thumbs
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ga_daisy;399826 wrote: ahhh.....late night TV, good thing I wasn't trying to....never mind, the exhusband is breathing just fine (or at least he is now that I've released his throat from my death grip)......chuckle chuckle. (relax, I wouldn't kill him, torturing slowly is so much more fun :thumbs
And I thought getting married was a good idea, my wife is sitting upstairs coming up with ideas.....:bash:"How bout them apples!"
