Phosphates and SPS - help from the mixed reef and SPS experts

[ralph atl]

Kirkwood;926945 wrote:
seems like those that are successful with mixed reefs maintain low phosphates but have extremely powerful nutrient export systems so that they can feed heavily to maintain their LPS and softies. What do you say Ralph?

My GFO is back online as of last night. I will test phos again in a few days to see the impact of the GFO.

Ralph I know you change out your GFO every 2 weeks. What is your ratio of tank gallons to quantity of GFO that you use???

<span style="color: red">I change out 1 cup of High Capacity GFO & Rox 0.8 Carbon every WEEK. 90 gallon tank plus 30 sump or so minus rock and such. It's not really the volume of water (yes, that does factor) as opposed to how much phates you import into the tank.</span>

Edit:

Acroholic;927012 wrote: And to throw a little curve into this thread, here is a thread from RC that shows a beautiful, thriving SPS reef with a very high phosphate level.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366953</a>[/QUOTE]


that's only one tank of thousands upon thousands that most do horrible with phates above real ocean reef levels....

 

[ralph atl]

mysterybox;927141 wrote: <span style="color: red">I change out 1 cup of High Capacity GFO & Rox 0.8 Carbon every WEEK. 90 gallon tank plus 30 sump or so minus rock and such. It's not really the volume of water (yes, that does factor) as opposed to how much phates you import into the tank.</span>

Edit:


that's only one tank of thousands upon thousands that most do horrible with phates above real ocean reef levels....

Acroholic;927072 wrote: It is not meant to help, but to show that there are many different paths and husbandry methods to achieving a successful reef tank.:yes:

still....1 out of a million...but yes, you are correct....

 

[acroholic]

mysterybox;927141 wrote: that's only one tank of thousands upon thousands that most do horrible with phates above real ocean reef levels....

mysterybox;927145 wrote: still....1 out of a million...but yes, you are correct....

One of these years I am going to have to start testing for phosphate. I couldn't tell you what my levels are or have ever been, but I try to maximize nutrient removal however I can, including using GFO.

 

[mikesmith34]

I'm on my 4th week of vodka dosing and running GFO / carbon reactor as well. Read up on it, it's very simple as long as you follow the instructions and don't get in a hurry. I took pics at the beginning and will take more at the end of 4 weeks for a comparison. I have noticed little changes in water clarity and a little better color in my acros. I have not reached my target dose yet just got to 2.3 ml. I am having some issues with z's melting right now. I think its due to the low nutrient levels that's taking place. I'm going to stay the course and see how it helps the sticks.

Edit: PS I need more acros but next to impossible to get here. I'll make the trip to atlanta soon.

 

[ralph atl]

Acroholic;927182 wrote: One of these years I am going to have to start testing for phosphate. I couldn't tell you what my levels are or have ever been, but I try to maximize nutrient removal however I can, including using GFO.

Albeit you might be surprised, but I doubt it! The only time someone like you needs to test low range phates, is just before we ae starting to have issues....
You could always shoot me a sample, though...

 

[gregoryleonard]

That's why I was saying that it may not be the Po4 levels but may be another factor, like flow, PAR levels or something not tied specifically to PO4. The RC article seems to support that possible theory (PO4 at 1.14+ with a Hach test kit???), but then again, it's difficult for anyone but the owner of a particular reef to tell you what might be wrong with your system, because only you know your system well. Hope you figure it out. It can be frustrating not knowing what the cause of something you want to correct, but nothing you try seems to make a difference.

 

[seth the wine guy]

I run, what I consider, a thriving mixed reef. Carpets of zoa's, different euphyllia, acans, brains, etc, and of course... A TON OF ACROS.
My PO4 rarely dips below .03 and will go as high as .12
It normally hovers around .03-.05

I don't even need to really test my PO4 anymore. I can look at my Acros and Milli's and their polyps will tell me what number PO4 is at. I just test to have that no look "Swish" from the three point line feeling.

I feed very heavy and have a ton of flow. (Four MP40's on a 120g) I also have a ton of light. One or all of those things must help.

 

[atmercure]

Seth The Wine Guy;927221 wrote: I run, what I consider, a thriving mixed reef. Carpets of zoa's, different euphyllia, acans, brains, etc, and of course... A TON OF ACROS.
My PO4 rarely dips below .03 and will go as high as .12
It normally hovers around .03-.05

I don't even need to really test my PO4 anymore. I can look at my Acros and Milli's and their polyps will tell me what number PO4 is at. I just test to have that no look "Swish" from the three point line feeling.

I feed very heavy and have a ton of flow. (Four MP40's on a 120g) I also have a ton of light. One or all of those things must help.

And a BEAST of a skimmer!

 

[kirkwood]

gregoryleonard;927220 wrote: That's why I was saying that it may not be the Po4 levels but may be another factor, like flow, PAR levels or something not tied specifically to PO4. The RC article seems to support that possible theory (PO4 at 1.14+ with a Hach test kit???), but then again, it's difficult for anyone but the owner of a particular reef to tell you what might be wrong with your system, because only you know your system well. Hope you figure it out. It can be frustrating not knowing what the cause of something you want to correct, but nothing you try seems to make a difference.

I have been working through my list of possible slow acro growth and lack of coloration for the past 6 months. I tested my PAR levels and I believe they are satisfactory for success with SPS. I went the extra mile and added a full spectrum array of LEDs to my MM and eshine units just to make sure it wasn't a spectral issue, or lack thereof. My array was certainly lacking in the 420nm, 480nm, and 660nm ranges. But I don't feel like I have gotten an accurate appraisal of the additional spectrums because I pulled my GFO offline right around the same time as I modded the LEDs so I know my PHOS has crept up during that time. The only thing I can't change about my LEDs is that they are NOT dimmable. So when the lights come on, BOOM they come on at full intensity... I have never noticed that to be a problem.

Edit:

Seth The Wine Guy;927221 wrote: I run, what I consider, a thriving mixed reef. Carpets of zoa's, different euphyllia, acans, brains, etc, and of course... A TON OF ACROS.
My PO4 rarely dips below .03 and will go as high as .12
It normally hovers around .03-.05

I don't even need to really test my PO4 anymore. I can look at my Acros and Milli's and their polyps will tell me what number PO4 is at. I just test to have that no look "Swish" from the three point line feeling.

I feed very heavy and have a ton of flow. (Four MP40's on a 120g) I also have a ton of light. One or all of those things must help.

That is definitely a TON of flow. I can't rule out the possibility that flow could be a limiting factor in my tank when compared to Seth, but I have a very hard time belieiving it would stunt calcification and lead to color loss. I am very confident that I achieve flow in the neighborhood of 4000-6000gph depending on how clean and efficient my koralia's are running. My 4 Koralia's are positioned on the back glass on opposite ends, 2 high and 2, low angled toward the center of the front glass. I stopped alternating flow because I felt I wasn't getting enough flow only running 2 of the Koralia's at time. I believe strong flow is more important than alternating current.

 

[ringo®]

Getting GFO running again is a smart move. When you say the coloration isn't where you want it, are you getting pale/bleaching sps?

 

[kirkwood]

Just got a new ELOS prima line Nitrate test kit in the mail today. I ran the test twice and both times came back with a 0 reading. I'll say that I'd estimate nitrates to be in the 0.1 - 0.4 range because according to the color chart, crystal clear water = 0 Nitrates and I could detect just the slightest tint of color in the sample, but still virtually unnoticeable. I will chalk that up to the small amount of nitrates in the water. Although its a great reading, I was almost hoping for a high reading so I would know something that I could target.

Now I'm working with Nitrates of ~0.1 and Phosphates of 0.06. GFO back online for 48 hours and I will retest Phosphates sometime this weekend. Before I took GFO online I was using 1 cup of BRS bulk GFO in a reactor and changing it out every month. At this time the best I can surmize is that upon introduction, new GFO would reduce Phosphates over the first 1-2 weeks, then in weeks 3-4 the GFO would be spent and phosphates would begin to rise. Does anyone know if left in the reactor too long if GFO can leach phoshpates back into the water column??

I feed almost exclusivly with ELOS pellets and ELOS SVC, which I've always been told have minimal impact on phosphates. Only on rare occassions do I feed frozen mysis or cyclopeeze. I dose 7ml of Fuel daily.

 

[ringo®]

Kirkwood;927326 wrote:
Does anyone know if left in the reactor too long if GFO can leach phoshpates back into the water column??

It does not release what it absorbs.

 

[kirkwood]

Ringo®;927314 wrote: When you say the coloration isn't where you want it, are you getting pale/bleaching sps?

Pale yes and the paleness can progress to a dull light brownish color, the light brown can progress to tissue recession... Tissue recession typically begins at the base and extends upward.. This has been a slow gradual process something in the 6 month range. I picked up frags of 14K milli and Sunset Milli in June and they displayed PE and they encrusted into my LR. But over the course of these past 7 months the encrustation stopped the PE came and went and eventually stopped, color diminished to a pale brown, and the edges of encrustation begin displaying tissue recession. I am confident that this is NOT STN but rather a systemic issue. Conversely, I am having success with some SPS now like Red dragon, hawkins echinata, calitort, slimer, valida, digis, stylos, BNs, Pocillis, and miyagi tort, but they all display a slow rate of calcification. Yet another finger that points at Phosphates.

 

[ringo®]

I would be inclined to agree.

Your LED's are 100% power or off, right? Out of curiosity, how long is your photoperiod?

 

[acroholic]

In one of my earlier SPS reefs, a 210 gallon, I had STN starting a the bases of some of my larger colonies. I was running two Tunze 6105 pumps at the time, and thiw was when Tunze was seriously overrating their pump flow numbers. I switched out to two Vortech MP40w pumps, and it was like flipping a switch. The STN stopped imediately after that. Been a Vortech guy ever since.

SPS changes the flow patterns in our reefs when when they get larger. What is good for a bunch of small sticks may not be for more mature colonies. You just may need to up your flow. I run six MP60s in my 465 gallon, up from four MP60s a few months ago. I have some colonies getting pretty big by reef tank standards.

Also, and I know this brings up the entire LED vs Halide vs T5 debate, ad nauseum, but have you considered trying a Halide on one side of the tank, maybe a 250 watt Radium, to see how the color is affected? LEDs grow SPS no doubt, of course, but you may be starting to see the inherent color issues some types of SPS (acropora and millleporas, IME) have under LEDs.

 

[kirkwood]

Ringo®;927329 wrote: I would be inclined to agree.

Your LED's are 100% power or off, right? Out of curiosity, how long is your photoperiod?

Yes. I run 405nm, 420nm, and 455nm from 3pm - 11pm. My whites (including 480nm, 660nm, and 2.5K) run from 4pm - 9.30pm. I run a 10x3w 48" unit with 455nm LEDs under 120 degree optics as my moonlight from 11pm - 11.30.. And i run it from 9am until the blues kick on at 3pm

 

[ringo®]

What kind of PAR were you getting in the SPS zones? I think</em> GFO will be a big help for you......but if not, you could always try messing around with a shorter photo period.

 

[kirkwood]

Acroholic;927343 wrote: In one of my earlier SPS reefs, a 210 gallon, I had STN starting a the bases of some of my larger colonies. I was running two Tunze 6105 pumps at the time, and thiw was when Tunze was seriously overrating their pump flow numbers. I switched out to two Vortech MP40w pumps, and it was like flipping a switch. The STN stopped imediately after that. Been a Vortech guy ever since.

SPS changes the flow patterns in our reefs when when they get larger. What is good for a bunch of small sticks may not be for more mature colonies. You just may need to up your flow. I run six MP60s in my 465 gallon, up from four MP60s a few months ago. I have some colonies getting pretty big by reef tank standards.

Also, and I know this brings up the entire LED vs Halide vs T5 debate, ad nauseum, but have you considered trying a Halide on one side of the tank, maybe a 250 watt Radium, to see how the color is affected? LEDs grow SPS no doubt, of course, but you may be starting to see the inherent color issues some types of SPS (acropora and millleporas, IME) have under LEDs.

Good points Dave. I did the LED mod to full spectrum just to make myself feel like I've given the LEDs the best chance for success. I will give it 6 months with the full spectrum array to see if that makes any difference. I really don't want to deal with the heat from a halide.

I may take your advice on flow and try and add an WP-25 or 40 (i can't pay ecotech prices).

At the end of the day my reef time has become ever more limited with 2 young children and I want to start letting my tank dictate what corals I keep instead of letting the corals dictate what alterations I have to make to my tank. I need time to enjoy the tank instead of always working on it or stressing about it. If some minor tweaks or changes in husbandry don't make the sticks happy then I'll just turn my attention to LPS, zoas, and softies. I can likely keep my stix-fix under control with some forest fire digi, various BNs, rainbow pocilli, purple polyp stylo, etc because they do well for me. I can leave the delicate SPS to you masters.

 

[tbub1221]

Kirkwood;927061 wrote: this certainly has my attention.. The cost of running GFO vs carbon dosing is a no brainer.

Question - how do you dose vodka when you go out of town? even setting it up on a dosing pump would have me very worried that it could be overdosed.

I'm house sitting for someone rite now and will be away for 4 days , I filled 4 insulin syringes with my carbon dose and Kat just shoots it in when feeding , but I'm looking to implement a doser .

I agree with a lot of the above info but iv sharedy thoughts with you already on carbon dose , I did see a little cyano once I reached the point where my dose was sufficient and I cut my dose in half , it has remained stable.
I did buy micro bacter7 to add daily to feed the good bacteria and that with a dose of chemclean took care of all cyano.
Cyanobacteria can adapt to feed off of many different things carbon being one .
I also began doseing because of nitrate not phosphate , I still run gfo and it last longer now .
Yes its a food source , by building carbon in the system you feed and build an army that are readily standing by to devour n03 & p04 .
Your skimmer will go in to muck making mode and start pulling more than ever .
This does allow heavier feeding for coral that require it.
I feed pretty heavy IMO .

 

[kirkwood]

Dave has me thinking a lot about flow now. I have tissue recession at the base of my very large slimer that has a huge mom to cap growing on the side so I know the flow is likely being blocked in some way. Although I run about 5000 got of koralias, I know they aren't the best PHs so this number may be vastly overrated. I can pickup a couple of WP40s for around 160 which would really boost my flow. I could even program them into my rectangle as the code is written to mimic most of the vortec functionality.

Second question. Does anyone know how much Charlton you would have to grow to equal the phosphate export of 1cup of GFO? Im considering boosting my fuge space. Im also trying to keep the fuge lit more during the day instead of just at night.