Primary causes of RTN STN and why can't it be stopped?

[porpoiseaquatics]

I just ran the Alk tests......I use two kits to get a balance. My Red Sea Pro kit say 14 dkH while my Sera kits says 11 dKH. When I had a 3rd kit to check against, the Sera came closer to the other kit (forgot which one now but I think it was a Salifert kit) than the RSP kit does.

At any rate.....so based on some of what I'm reading here....do you think that the tank the frags came from may have been at a lower dkH and that is why they are affected? Wouldn't it be an immediate affect instead of 2 weeks later though?

Just rambling to see if there is a probable cause or if it's "just one of those things" and let it go.

 

[marquiseo]

But what everyone is forgetting what the actual RTN/STN stands for.

Rapid Tissue Necrosis
Slow Tissue Necrosis

<u>Medical Definition:</u>

Necrosis is death of body tissue. It occurs when there is not enough blood flowing to the tissue, whether from injury, radiation, or chemicals. Necrosis is not reversible.



B.L.U.F.

Induced by stress factors. So to avoid it and stop it is to correct the imbalance or remove the stress factor until it favorable.

 

[marquiseo]

porpoiseaquatics;986104 wrote: I just ran the Alk tests......I use two kits to get a balance. My Red Sea Pro kit say 14 dkH while my Sera kits says 11 dKH. When I had a 3rd kit to check against, the Sera came closer to the other kit (forgot which one now but I think it was a Salifert kit) than the RSP kit does.

At any rate.....so based on some of what I'm reading here....do you think that the tank the frags came from may have been at a lower dkH and that is why they are affected? Wouldn't it be an immediate affect instead of 2 weeks later though?

Just rambling to see if there is a probable cause or if it's "just one of those things" and let it go.

It all depends on its ability to adapt to the conditions. That's why some say their sps were fine one day then it was dead the next day. It just means something changed that it couldn't bare.
It is best to try to stick to the natural environment. Since these are animals, we can only try to mimic its natural habit so that it can be favorable.

 

[porpoiseaquatics]

I should've mentioned that at 11 dkH on the Sera kit.....I've tested between 10 & 11 on the same kit since December 18, 2013 so stability in my tank doesn't appear to be an issue. What's more is the existing acros in the tank have all been unaffected.

 

[marquiseo]

Also, the probable cause ranges from too much light too quickly, swings or non-normal ALK, contamination, or injury. You have to see what were the last changes to your tank and determine what event caused it.

 

[marquiseo]

porpoiseaquatics;986109 wrote: I should've mentioned that at 11 dkH on the Sera kit.....I've tested between 10 & 11 on the same kit since December 18, 2013 so stability in my tank doesn't appear to be an issue. What's more is the existing acros in the tank have all been unaffected.

IMO its more of the sudden changes that cause it. My dKH starts at 12 and when its time for my WC it is at 7. I have tested plenty of times and saw it get down to 7 without any effects to my SPS.

 

[tonymission]

MarquiseO;986113 wrote: IMO its more of the sudden changes that cause it. My dKH starts at 12 and when its time for my WC it is at 7. I have tested plenty of times and saw it get down to 7 without any effects to my SPS.

So you aren't dosing? That's a pretty big swing really.

 

[tonymission]

porpoiseaquatics;986104 wrote: I just ran the Alk tests......I use two kits to get a balance. My Red Sea Pro kit say 14 dkH while my Sera kits says 11 dKH. When I had a 3rd kit to check against, the Sera came closer to the other kit (forgot which one now but I think it was a Salifert kit) than the RSP kit does.

At any rate.....so based on some of what I'm reading here....do you think that the tank the frags came from may have been at a lower dkH and that is why they are affected? Wouldn't it be an immediate affect instead of 2 weeks later though?

Just rambling to see if there is a probable cause or if it's "just one of those things" and let it go.

You will get better growth in this range (more washed out color though) but the frags from Gary probably came in out of 8 dkh range which is why your existing sps don't mind the higher alk. They've adjusted. Another issue with being on the higher end of the alk range is that you don't have much room for an increased swing without going over the "safe zone". I ask most vendors I purchase from and they seem to sit in that 8-9 range. I've had to adjust my ESV salt mix to be here since it mixes closer to 10-11 following their directions exactly. Again, it's not necessarily bad to be there, but the colors could be a concern and new frags probably won't like it.

 

[marquiseo]

tonymission;986154 wrote: So you aren't dosing? That's a pretty big swing really.

I was initially but I stopped because my WC were doing well alone. I have gotten lazy in the last few weeks on WC. my nutrients are low. According to zeovit, that's the right dKH for Low nutrient systems so I guess it works out.

 

[tonymission]

Acroholic;986092 wrote: I think RTN/STN is symptomatic of an issue like SEA stated, but there can probably be more than one reason for causing it. This is anecdotal of course, but I had STN/RTN in a 300 gallon SPS tank I had a couple years ago when the corals got very large and changed the flow pattern in the tank. Simply put, I think the pumps I was using for in-tank circulation stopped providing adequate flow as the colonies got large for adequate food and waste exchange. I switched to a different type pump and more of them, and the RTN/STN Stopped overnight like flipping a switch.

So what I am saying is I believe RTN/STN can be caused by something non-biological in origin, like lack of adequate water movement in the tank or alkalinity issues (chemical in origin) like was stated above, not necessarily a result of a direct bacterial infection. And I am sure there are many other causes, biological and non-biological in origin.

This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing that

 

[tonymission]

MarquiseO;986156 wrote: I was initially but I stopped because my WC were doing well alone. I have gotten lazy in the last few weeks on WC. my nutrients are low. According to zeovit, that's the right dKH for Low nutrient systems so I guess it works out.

Yeah lower is better for ULN systems. High alk with ULN will probably lead to burned tips on your acros if sustained at that level.

I shoot for stability hour to hour so couldn't deal with a weekly 5 dkh swing, but maybe I'm just overly anal and it's not necessary at all.

 

[reeferman]

oh,its necessary Tony,stay anal about it lol.

 

[tbub1221]

Sorry to hijack the thread but its on topic , and this particular thread has the attention of some very knowledgeable people.
I'm having a case of stn creeping up the base of a ponap colony , my first thought was it wasn't getting enough light To the base due to new growth shade , but its still creeping.
This is the fastest growing sps I've ever seen you can notice changes almost every other day and it allows has great pe like all the sps but in 3 weeks it' lost 1/4" of flesh at the base.
I look at alk ever 4 days I've gotten it to a stable balance at 12 dkh using red sea I'm looking to invest in a hanna alk checker soon .
Anyway should I cover t with glue or trim affected off ,it's still very salvageable .
I'd be awfully upset if it spread to another sps colony

Or should I watch it's progress and see if it stopps

 

[tonymission]

reeferman;986159 wrote: oh,its necessary Tony,stay anal about it lol.

Thanks Reggie, I will! I'm probably the newest stickfreak on here so I try to be respectful and any "knowledge" I share is just something I stole from someone smarter than I am.

 

[acroholic]

Tbub1221;986163 wrote: Sorry to hijack the thread but its on topic , and this particular thread has the attention of some very knowledgeable people.
I'm having a case of stn creeping up the base of a ponap colony , my first thought was it wasn't getting enough light To the base due to new growth shade , but its still creeping.
This is the fastest growing sps I've ever seen you can notice changes almost every other day it seems but in 3 weeks it'ist 1/4" at the base.
I look at alk ever 4 days I've gotten it to a stable balance at 12 dkh using red sea I'm looking to invest in a hanna alk checker soon .
Anyway should I cover t with glue or trim affected off ,it's still very salvageable .
I'd be awfully upset if it spread to another sps colony

Most of the SPS tanks that do well are usually in the range of 8-10. Pretty big group of SPS guys on the big forum, and most experienced folks with long term experience try to stay a bit on either side of KH of 9. That way you have wiggle room each way for minor variances. My target is 9 dKH. I would try to lower your KH eventually for the middle ground. 7 is low, and 12 is high. You want to try to be in the 7-11 range.

 

[tonymission]

@tbub -- I would just frag it and re-glue the good portion. Doubt it's a light issue as that's usually browning or bleaching. 12alk is high but is it always 12 or you just tested when you noticed the issue with the coral?

 

[tbub1221]

tonymission;986171 wrote: @tbub -- I would just frag it and re-glue the good portion. Doubt it's a light issue as that's usually browning or bleaching. 12alk is high but is it always 12 or you just tested when you noticed the issue with the coral?

It's stable at 12 it seems I'm a little anal about it and use to look daily at different times looking for swings now I do it every 4 days because I was obsessing over nothing.
I will lower the alk by cutting back my part 2 .
I have to admit the ted sea alk test seems consistent , but its so difficult to determine exactly 11.8-12.2 , and I've seen more than once when checked against other test kits they usually seem tad higher so I fear I will never truly know until a hanna is in my hand
Thanks for the input guys , I think I might cut it tomorrow morning.

 

[brandonmason]

porpoiseaquatics;986104 wrote: I just ran the Alk tests......I use two kits to get a balance. My Red Sea Pro kit say 14 dkH while my Sera kits says 11 dKH. When I had a 3rd kit to check against, the Sera came closer to the other kit (forgot which one now but I think it was a Salifert kit) than the RSP kit does.

At any rate.....so based on some of what I'm reading here....do you think that the tank the frags came from may have been at a lower dkH and that is why they are affected? Wouldn't it be an immediate affect instead of 2 weeks later though?

Just rambling to see if there is a probable cause or if it's "just one of those things" and let it go.

Jeff I'm sure you could message the vendor and ask where they kept their alk at. If its 7--9 I would say that it was an alk swing that caused the stn and that would give you a piece of mind so to say

 

[ralph atl]

a few months ago I tried to convert from vodka dosing to a suphur based denitrifying reactor...all along trying to run an ulns and not allow vodka to get in sulphur (who knows?)....

bottom line phates jumped up fast and my Red Dragon RTN'd.....

the last year and a half has been the "year of the fish" for me as my main focus has been insuring my 5 delicate wrasses success, so the amount of high phate food and the amount of feedings has been extreme which already caused issues for sps....After 6 months I have finally got my female anampses twistii (of pair) teeted off of Nutramar-Ova...

now it's the "year of coral", so my only loss will springboard me with motivation to concentrate on my sps! and new build and new additions!

 

[porpoiseaquatics]

So my next question is....if my pH is at 8.2, Alk is at 11, CA is at 500 and my Mg is at 1400 consistently...how do I get my Alk to drop a couple of points without affecting the other 3?