Ready to toss in the towel

[ironman58]

Hey y'all, Been a while since I posted-Tanks been up and running for right at 6 months now, and I've been battling nitrate levels, All my corals are dying, fish are doing fine, but I cannot keep corals in the tank-They die after about 4-5 weeks-I've changed water, bought an RO/RI unit, changed the gravel to sand, thoroughly cleaned the tank twice (it's a 46-gallon bowfront). Yet everytime I test the water, my nitrates show >40 ppm. Here's the WEIRD part: I took water samples to 2 separate LFS. Both said the water's fine!! If THAT'S so, Why can't I keep corals alive? I have adequate lighting, Corallife T5, that I leave on about 8 hours a day.
I dunno, freshwater was a LOT easier than this. I never imagined this hobby would be SO STRESSFUL!!! I'm almost to the point of trading everything in and going back to freshwater, but I know patience is vital, so I'm holding off a little while longer. ANYBODY have thoughts/ideas/suggestions about keeping corals? Corals are the reason I wanted a reef tank...

 

[reefwife]

Are you running a skimmer? It is possible that your test was bad and that is why you were getting false readings!

 

[jmaneyapanda]

First and foremost, dude, dont chase numebrs. I would speculate that at least 50% of the "Accidents" or meltdowns that occur in this hobby are from people trying to chase numbers.

Inverts can fail for a huge variety of reasons. How have you deduced it is from the nitrates? What is your lighting, salinity, other params etc. we can help you out.

 

[ironman58]

Thanks for the responses guys-I have a skimmer, 2 in fact, one in the sump and one for my refugium. This is what I've had that died:
Candy-cane coral
Rose Anemone
2 Brain Corals
green bubble coral
2 clams
and a couple of others that I can't remember the name of..

All my fish are fine, I did lose a Sally Lightfoot crab last week. Could it be the lighting then? What are PCS?? Are they expensive? I'm sorta reluctant to keep pumping money into it..

 

[ironman58]

Barbara;188558 wrote: Gary, I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles. I know when you first got started you came to my house and I gave you some zoas. How are those doing? Do you have any corals that have lived? Grown? When you say you're battling a nitrate problem, are you also having algae problems? I could come over and look at your tank if you like. You know where I live and I'm guessing we're close to each other.

Hey Barbara! good to hear from ya! zoas seem to be the only thing that lives in there. It's all over the rocks. I'm just not sure about the nitrates since 2 separate tests at different stores showed that the water's fine. The fish are active and playful-In fact, MUCH more active since I changed the gravel to sand.

I think I'll just leave it alone for the next 6 months and start adding corals maybe after Christmas. I'll look into the lighting as someone else suggested too. If things get worse, I may take you up on your offer.

 

[reefwife]

You will find that patience is a virtue in this hobby. I would definately look into upgrading your lights as Dawgdue suggested. Just give it time. If you need any help or want someone to come in and give you a second opinion, plenty of people would be glad to help. Good luck!

 

[tattoocliff]

its your lights. if you had a clam, you must have metal halides.
clams cant live with just t5s.
and you may be skimming to much.
I would get mh lights.
then you can put what ever you want in there.
salt water city has some used ones for a real good deal. check with them.
there # is 678-236-9200

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188569 wrote: Here is why I think each died:

Candy-cane coral-not enough light
Rose Anemone- should not be put in a tank before 1 yr old, require high light and regular feeding
2 Brain Corals-Not enough light
green bubble coral-Not enough light
2 clams- VERY high light, need lots of HO T-5 or Metal halide toward the top of the tank.

I would pick up the book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and give it a read. Your choices in corals and inverts were alot of the problems that you have and I think like Reefwife said, you went a bit to fast. When something dies in your tank, I would wait atleast 3-4 weeks before adding anything else and I would start with ALL SOFTIES. You are jumping into anemones, LPS and clams way to early. Just slow down, try to find some Zoas, kenya tree, leather, mushrooms and colt corals first. Then once they are growing and thriving, step up to more difficult corals.

What kind of skimmers do you have?

Well, I have one that came with the sump and a much smaller one for the refugium-Both of them are producing a lot of black nasty stuff, I rinse them out once a week..I'll check with Josh at SWC about the lights. Thanks y'all...good to know I have helpful advice anyway!!!!!!

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188572 wrote: What test kit are you using?

API- I actually have 2 separate lits, a "Reef Master" version and a "Saltwater" version-Both showed identical results-I even tested with different test tubes

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188576 wrote: Just realize that you will need to ventilate your hood VERY well if you add MH. I would suggest going with HO T-5s.

I wouldnt skim on your refug. The point of a fug is to absorb things that are in the water and if you are skimming on the fuge then you are competing with yourself. I would move it to a seperate part of the tank. How big are these skimmers and what model are they?

It's a Pro Clear MPS 150...The one on the refugium is a cube about as big as your hand that sits inside of the left part of the refugium...

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188578 wrote: How old is the test kit? I would rinse the test tubes in RODI water really well and then follow the instructions to a T. How often are you doing WC and of what amounts? Also what do your other test levels show?

What is your salinity?
What is your pH?
What are your nitrites?
What is your mag?
What is your calcium?

I haven't checked those in a while, but the last time I did, they were within limits..

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188585 wrote: What was your salinity last time you checked?

Well, I'm at work and don't remember the scale, but it was slightly higher than the 'middle' reading...

 

[jmaneyapanda]

dawgdude;188571 wrote: Clams dont require just MH's. It is always a good idea to buy a clam in excess of 2-3 inches because at this point they are completely photosynthetic. When they are younger and small, they need more filter feeding and phyto.

While were on the topic, that isnt accurate either. Clams arent ever "too small" to photosynthetically produce enough energy for growth and survival. All clams filter feed throughout their life, but can actually produce more energy per relative size when they are smaller by photosynthesis, than when larger. That whjole filter feeding when juvenile thing was actually "researched" and promoted many yeras ago by -surprise- a company that made a filter feeding diet!

 

[george]

Ironman58;188548 wrote: I've changed water, bought an RO/RI unit, changed the gravel to sand, thoroughly cleaned the tank twice (it's a 46-gallon bowfront).

When were each of these done and please be detailed.

Depending on how much water you changed, you may have completely depleted the nutrients in the water column that clams like and corals can benefit from as well. NOT nitrates, but things like bacteria and stuff that plankton (i.e. copepods, etc) feed on.

By "gravel" do you mean the freshwater kind? That can leach all kinds of things into the water that can kill corals and invertebrates, including copper and other heavy metals.

A thorough cleaning can sterilize the tank of many things corals and clams need to survive. You said the fish are fine. Presumably you feed them, but corals need the complex ecosystem that comes from a properly cycled tank which you may have reset in cleaning.

Do you have live rock? was this part of the cleaning process?

dawgdude;188569 wrote: Candy-cane coral-not enough light

Not necessarily true. I have kept plenty of candy canes quite well under those 6500K refugium lights about a foot away from the light.

However having a candy cane coral die on you means there is either something really, really wrong in your system or you have rapid tissue necrosis. They're *extremely* hardy corals.

<u>To sum up on the original topic:</u>
I don't know if a tank can be fully cycled with fish, but my feeling here is that the tank wasn't fully cycled or set up and has not been given the time to do so. The big changes you've made may have "reset" the cycling. It may be necessary to find temporary housing for your fish for a month or two to correctly cycle your tank.

This hobby is not difficult and you've bought the equipment, but it does take time and patience to set up correctly.

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188590 wrote: Ok well check that when you get him and let us know. Also, if you can just do a full test and post the results, that will help alot.

OK, I'll run the whole series tomorrow and let y'all know. I really appreciate y'all's help. We really love the tank but it's just discouraging to see things die and you don't know WHY!!!

 

[ironman58]

George;188600 wrote: When were each of these done and please be detailed.

Depending on how much water you changed, you may have completely depleted the nutrients in the water column that clams like and corals can benefit from as well. NOT nitrates, but things like bacteria and stuff that plankton (i.e. copepods, etc) feed on.

By "gravel" do you mean the freshwater kind? That can leach all kinds of things into the water that can kill corals and invertebrates, including copper and other heavy metals.

A thorough cleaning can sterilize the tank of many things corals and clams need to survive. You said the fish are fine. Presumably you feed them, but corals need the complex ecosystem that comes from a properly cycled tank which you may have reset in cleaning.

Do you have live rock? was this part of the cleaning process?

Not necessarily true. I have kept plenty of candy canes quite well under those 6500K refugium lights about a foot away from the light.

However having a candy cane coral die on you means there is either something really, really wrong in your system or you have rapid tissue necrosis. They're *extremely* hardy corals.

<u>To sum up on the original topic:</u>
I don't know if a tank can be fully cycled with fish, but my feeling here is that the tank wasn't fully cycled or set up and has not been given the time to do so. The big changes you've made may have "reset" the cycling. It may be necessary to find temporary housing for your fish for a month or two to correctly cycle your tank.

This hobby is not difficult and you've bought the equipment, but it does take time and patience to set up correctly.

Ok, I see...Do I really need to move the fish though?
If I took them over to Saltwater City, would they hold them for me???

 

[george]

Ironman58;188603 wrote: Ok, I see...Do I really need to move the fish though?

That's the part I'm not sure about. A true cycle of a tank and live rock includes ammonia and nitrate spikes that might kill them. I've never had that many fish in my tanks and, oddly, have had the worst luck with fish where I've had corals and clams go like gangbusters.

Someone with more expertise in fish able to add?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

If you are going to run a full cycle, I would recommend removing the fish. Ammonia does nasty stuff to fish, so it would be a cruel risk.

Charlie- check out this thread for some info on clam feeding. Its old, but the references I posted are what matters.

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188608 wrote: How much of water changes were you doing? How many gallons and what number on the hydrometer were you measuring to?

When I was trying to lower Nitrates, I changed about half the water, 2 changes a day (about 5 gallons at a time) for 3 days. After noticing NO changes in the nitrate levels, THEN I 'googled' a bit and found out about the sand vs. coral substrate and how one guy's nitrate problems disappeared after he changed from coral to playground sand. SO, I was on vacation and just decided to do that, went to home depot, bought a 50-gallon waste can and 3 bags of playground sand, and about 8 hours later, I was done with it. I saved about 75% of the water, kept my fish and corals in a 10-gallon tank I picked up at PetSmart and then thoroughly cleaned the tank, skimmers, sump, etc. I rinsed the sand thoroughly and added it a little bit at at time, then added the old water. I filled up the rest of the tank with RO/RI water then added the fish back after making sure the temp/salinity matched...
The Nitrate level DID drop a little, instead of dark red, it was showing bright orange. SO I thought I was on the right track. This all happened 3 weeks ago....

 

[ironman58]

dawgdude;188611 wrote: Ok I wouldnt suggest changing more than a third of the tanks volume at a time. Multiple small changes 5 gal a day 4 days a week will help more than you think. If you take out that much volume at a time, you are removing to much of the bacteria and other things living in the water so you cripple your tank from cycling properly and fully. My suggestion is to buy a new test kit, buy some new lights and wait a month before add ANYTHING to your tank AND have your tanks params stable for 3-4 weeks before you even try corals.

What is the TDS of your RODI and was it new or used when you bought it? Also, buy a new nitrate test kit of a different brand and try that test kit.

What's TDS? Total displacement something I'm guessing..Itwas a brand new RO/RI from Optimum...I'll buy another Nitrate kit. great idea!!

I was reading the water changes thread-I usually mix and change my water the same day instead of letting it mix for 24 hours...I'll change that too..


Thanks a bunch for all the help!!!