salt mixing question

jmaneyapanda;816070 wrote: Because IO and Salinity use different materials in creation. VERY different. Comparing the two salts is like comparing a flip flop and a high end walking shoe. Both cover your feet and both with allow you protection when walking, but they are made different and are used differently.
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I understand that they use different materials but the end use is the same. How are they used differently? Jeremy have you ever read anything to substantiate the claim that freshly made saltwater is caustic?

Edit: Also how can some who use Salinity and Coral pro mix many days ahead of time with no precip or cloudiness if mixing too much is the reason?
 
grouper therapy;816074 wrote:
Edit: Also how can some who use Salinity and Coral pro mix many days ahead of time with no precip or cloudiness if mixing too much is the reason?
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Why does John's Arco colonies grow faster with more color than Bob's?
Variables or even embellishments (I know I know. NOBODY would ever embellish results.)

Dave, sounds like you are obsessed with understanding exactly HOW it works instead of being content to LET something work. That's ok. Probably serves you well as a reefer and the attention to detail needed in the hobby.

If I go to the doctor and have the koodie virus and he prescribes anti koodie medicine I take it as directed and move on. I don't waste his time or my time trying to understand why. Other people will go home, google their virus, then google the medicine, and proceed to try and outsmart the doctor, pharmaceutical, and ultimately, themselves.

OP had a question. He got an answer quantified by differing salts that may cause this.
I have used over 1000 gallons worth of both IO and Salinity in the past two years. I was not pleased with results from IO. I was also not pleased with the results from Salinity until I followed their mixing directions. I don't need to know the why when I see it WORK.

I guess I'm just simple minded like that.
 
grouper therapy;816074 wrote: I understand that they use different materials but the end use is the same. How are they used differently? Jeremy have you ever read anything to substantiate the claim that freshly made saltwater is caustic?

Edit: Also how can some who use Salinity and Coral pro mix many days ahead of time with no precip or cloudiness if mixing too much is the reason?
Click to expand...

As a craftsmen, Id expect you to understand. Are you implying that BECAUSE the end use is the same, they can be used the same? Is this true of all glues? Tools? Wood finishes? Of course its not. As they are made of different materials, the preparation and installation can easily be different. Same is with the salt. Just because two glues end up bonding the same two pieces of wood together doesn't mean they can be administered and applied the same way at all.

I have SEEN freshly made saltwater adversely affect livestock. Also, I have USED freshly made saltwater and had it NOT affect it. It doesnt change the fact that the manufacturer, designer, and creator of the salt instructs for best use to NOT overmix the saltwater.
 
grouper therapy;816048 wrote:

Edit: The seachem rep mixes in his garage as well. If a vehicle is parked there I cannot imagine How the co2 levels are elevated:unsure:
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Don't know about you...
I bet he is like me and we turn off the engine when it's in there.
 
Seth The Wine Guy;816085 wrote: Why does John's Arco colonies grow faster with more color than Bob's?
Variables or even embellishments (I know I know. NOBODY would ever embellish results.)

Dave, sounds like you are obsessed with understanding exactly HOW it works instead of being content to LET something work. That's ok. Probably serves you well as a reefer and the attention to detail needed in the hobby.

If I go to the doctor and have the koodie virus and he prescribes anti koodie medicine I take it as directed and move on. I don't waste his time or my time trying to understand why. Other people will go home, google their virus, then google the medicine, and proceed to try and outsmart the doctor, pharmaceutical, and ultimately, themselves.

OP had a question. He got an answer quantified by differing salts that may cause this.
I have used over 1000 gallons worth of both IO and Salinity in the past two years. I was not pleased with results from IO. I was also not pleased with the results from Salinity<u><span style="color: Red"> until I followed their mixing directions</span></u>. I don't need to know the why when I see it WORK.

I guess I'm just simple minded like that.
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To be frank, I believe THIS to be the biggest flaw in reefers using Salinity. They REFUSE to follow the manufacturers directions. Particularly when a large drum one the salt was being used over a long period of time, and the anhydrous nature of the salt. Needless to say, there are a lot of critics of salinity, who quite blatantly state they do not follow the manufacturers directions for use. I think this is foolhardy. IMO, there is no better salt for a reef aquarium than Salinity. But that is just my opinion.
 
Seth The Wine Guy;816085 wrote: Why does John's Arco colonies grow faster with more color than Bob's?
Variables or even embellishments (I know I know. NOBODY would ever embellish results.)

Dave, sounds like you are obsessed with understanding exactly HOW it works instead of being content to LET something work. That's ok. Probably serves you well as a reefer and the attention to detail needed in the hobby.

If I go to the doctor and have the koodie virus and he prescribes anti koodie medicine I take it as directed and move on. I don't waste his time or my time trying to understand why. Other people will go home, google their virus, then google the medicine, and proceed to try and outsmart the doctor, pharmaceutical, and ultimately, themselves.

OP had a question. He got an answer quantified by differing salts that may cause this.
I have used over 1000 gallons worth of both IO and Salinity in the past two years. I was not pleased with results from IO. I was also not pleased with the results from Salinity until I followed their mixing directions. I don't need to know the why when I see it WORK.

I guess I'm just simple minded like that.
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No worries !You don't know ,you don't know. I still love ya man.
So far as my being obsessed with the "why" of things I'll let you perceive as you wish . I enjoy discussing these subjects. I find that my not taking for face value what everyone(including manuefactors) says can lead to an intelligent discussion on the subject which I think is one of the goals or purposes of a reef discussion forum. I suppose we could just accept what we are told and have a live video feed of everyones tank and just watch it all work.
Back to the question. Can anyone explain why some can mix the Salinity and coral pro for days before use and not experience the same results as others if mixing to much is the problem?

Edit:
Seth The Wine Guy;816090 wrote: Don't know about you...
I bet he is like me and we turn off the engine when it's in there.
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I'm sure we all coast in or I guess you push yours in?:)

Edit:
jmaneyapanda;816088 wrote: As a craftsmen, Id expect you to understand. Are you implying that BECAUSE the end use is the same, they can be used the same? Is this true of all glues? Tools? Wood finishes? Of course its not. As they are made of different materials, the preparation and installation can easily be different. Same is with the salt. Just because two glues end up bonding the same two pieces of wood together doesn't mean they can be administered and applied the same way at all.

I have SEEN freshly made saltwater adversely affect livestock. Also, I have USED freshly made saltwater and had it NOT affect it. It doesnt change the fact that the manufacturer, designer, and creator of the salt instructs for best use to NOT overmix the saltwater.
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Did not imply that at all Just asked about the end use because I really thought there was a difference that I did not know about. So far as adhesives (great analogy btw much better than Seth's:tongue:) Yes There are different methods and applications for them. That said if the same adhesive is used by two different people using the same mixing instructions to insure proper working time and cure time experienced different results I would want to know why.
 
grouper therapy;816102 wrote: No worries !You don't know ,you don't know. I still love ya man.
So far as my being obsessed with the "why" of things I'll let you perceive as you wish . I enjoy discussing these subjects. I find that my not taking for face value what everyone(including manuefactors) says can lead to an intelligent discussion on the subject which I think is one of the goals or purposes of a reef discussion forum. I suppose we could just accept what we are told and have a live video feed of everyones tank and just watch it all work.
Back to the question. Can anyone explain why some can mix the Salinity and coral pro for days before use and not experience the same results as others if mixing to much is the problem?

Edit:
I'm sure we all coast in or I guess you push yours in?:)

Edit:
Did not imply that at all Just asked about the end use because I really thought there was a difference that I did not know about. So far as adhesives (great analogy btw much better than Seth's:tongue:) Yes There are different methods and applications for them. That said if the same adhesive is used by two different people using the same mixing instructions to insure proper working time and cure time experienced different results I would want to know why.
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Or the opposite .two using the same method out side of the manufactures recommendation with different results .

Once again why can some mix days ahead of time with no precip or cloudiness and others not ?
 
The answer is pretty simple to me- it is the materials and their storage. I think people were misusing and mis-storing the salinity. In particular, a LOT of people had those big 1050 barrels of salinity, which were not intended for use by hobbyists (which is why theyre not available, Im guessing). Take a container of anhydrous material. Store it in humid locations, and attempt to use it as anhydrous = failure.

You can't assume that everything was the same between different user. They aren't.
 
jmaneyapanda;816118 wrote: The answer is pretty simple to me- it is the materials and their storage. I think people were misusing and mis-storing the salinity. In particular, a LOT of people had those big 1050 barrels of salinity, which were not intended for use by hobbyists (which is why theyre not available, Im guessing). Take a container of anhydrous material. Store it in humid locations, and attempt to use it as anhydrous = failure.

You can't assume that everything was the same between different user. They aren't.
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Excellent point.
What are the advantages of using Salinity over the other salts available in your opinion?
 
Keep back peddling Dave. You look better from the front anyway! :tongue:

As far as discussion goes. I enjoy many users experiences and what they have to say but take it with a grain of salt. In this case, I put more weight into input from a company with an army of chemists making the product with another army of marine biologists actively testing the product on a daily basis on the tanks at Seachem.

It's one thing to question their performance claims. That's what any prudent reefer would do. What's NOT prudent is to argue with them HOW to best prepare the product. It's not like a dosing product that needs to be finely adjusted to meet the needs of a given tank.

Heck, call me crazy but I'll even put some weight into the statements of some guy with a measly Marine Biology degree from Stanford.
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jmaneyapanda;816118 wrote: The answer is pretty simple to me- it is the materials and their storage. I think people were misusing and mis-storing the salinity. In particular, a LOT of people had those big 1050 barrels of salinity, which were not intended for use by hobbyists (which is why theyre not available, Im guessing). Take a container of anhydrous material. Store it in humid locations, and attempt to use it as anhydrous = failure.

You can't assume that everything was the same between different user. They aren't.
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<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana">I used a 175g bucket and a 200g bag of RSCP and the tank LQQKed good but after cutting the last 3 batches 50% with salinity the tank has gotten brighter and things are perking up. </span></span>

<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana">That being said I was using salinity and around the frag swap got a good deal on IO. I used a 200g bx and a 160g bucket and was not happy, so I sold the other 160g bucket. I had gotten the stuff to dose the tank to off set the stuff that was missing in IO but I could never get it right. So I had bought some RSCP to change to. I was going to switch at the end of that bucket but got a good deal on a 200g bag so it delayed my switch. </span></span>
 
Seth The Wine Guy;816121 wrote: Keep back peddling Dave. You look better from the front anyway! :tongue:

As far as discussion goes. I enjoy many users experiences and what they have to say but take it with a grain of salt. In this case, I put more weight into input from a company with an army of chemists making the product with another army of marine biologists actively testing the product on a daily basis on the tanks at Seachem.

It's one thing to question their performance claims. That's what any prudent reefer would do. What's NOT prudent is to argue with them HOW to best prepare the product. It's not like a dosing product that needs to be finely adjusted to meet the needs of a given tank.

Heck, call me crazy but I'll even put some weight into the statements of some guy with a measly Marine Biology degree from Stanford.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
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Trying to understand why is not arguing. While Jeremy makes a valid point about two situations or conditions not being identical that is only speculation as well. So far as the OP's question as to whether saltwater can be mixed too much in reference to brown film he described I still say NO. By Seachem's on admission the short mixing time does not completely alleviate the cloudiness or precipitation.

Edit: I personally use a medium sized Koralia ( sorry, don't remember the model) to mix my 30 gallon vats at home and have no issues with cloudiness and residue. As strange as it sounds, it seems that the more agitation, the more cloudy the water gets. Lastly, we recommend using the salt within 24 hours, even if still cloudy. The cloudiness will clear fairly fast once added to the aquarium and will not harm any of the inhabitants.
So which is it? lol
The longer any salt is mixed, the more time it has for the properties to degrade. CO2 dissolves into the solution from the surrounding atmosphere and will slowly break down components of the alkalinity. Using the mix within 24 hours helps reduce this effect.
Doesn't sound brand specific to me.
 
:unsure:Ok I will be open minded and try this Salt next restocking .
A little confused about the mixing instructions . This is from their website:
2. Stir well to ensure a good mix. Although the salinity™ solution may be used immediately, we suggest mixing for approximately 24 hours to achieve oxygen/carbon dioxide equilibrium.
And this from their post here:
Lastly, we recommend using the salt within 24 hours, even if still cloudy. The cloudiness will clear fairly fast once added to the aquarium and will not harm any of the inhabitants. The longer any salt is mixed, the more time it has for the properties to degrade. CO2 dissolves into the solution from the surrounding atmosphere and will slowly break down components of the alkalinity. Using the mix within 24 hours helps reduce this effect.
So do you let it mix for 24 and then turn back the clock?:unsure:
 
I like to use mine on hr 23 minute 59. That allows the salt to hit its peak ;)

Hehe usually used within an hour or two from the initial mixing time.
 
mixed 15 gallons yesterday about 4pm and went to a meeting and came back late and did not feel like doing the wc. worked late tonight and still did not feel like it but tomorrow is another day and it will be clear as always.
 
I have not experienced the precipitation from salinity that others have. NEVER. Granted, I've only been using it for about a month an a half and have only used one bucket, I still haven't had any precipitation. Sure, it's cloudy for the first hour or so. It clears quickly once it is in the tank, however it doesn't not ever mix as clear as IO mixes. This could be because I generally use it quickly.

FWIW, I do like the salt. The corals seem very happy and colorful, so I'm going to stick with it for a while.
 
Ripped Tide;816280 wrote: I like to use mine on hr 23 minute 59. That allows the salt to hit its peak ;)

Hehe usually used within an hour or two from the initial mixing time.
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Ripped Tide;816288 wrote: I have not experienced the precipitation from salinity that others have. NEVER. Granted, I've only been using it for about a month an a half and have only used one bucket, I still haven't had any precipitation. Sure, it's cloudy for the first hour or so. It clears quickly once it is in the tank, however it doesn't not ever mix as clear as IO mixes. This could be because I generally use it quickly.

FWIW, I do like the salt. The corals seem very happy and colorful, so I'm going to stick with it for a while.
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I have no doubts it's fine salt. Many others seem to swear by it so I am willing to give it another try. I saw no difference in my system but perhaps I did not use it long enough.
The whole precipitation thing really doesn't concern me I guess, what does is conflicting instructions from the manufacture. Seth who trust the manufacture says that they recommended to him to do a quick mix and dump but the website says mix approximately 24 hrs to achieve oxygen/carbon dioxide equilibrium, then a company rep recommends to mix and use before 24 hrs has expired to minimize this action, not sure which one Seth is trusting. Now you use it within the 2 hr time frame. All that said, Jeremy who I respect says the biggest mistake people make using the salt is not following the mixing instruction. Not sure now!
 
What mistakes have been made using the salt?

Has the salt been the problem or the scapegoat.

Are all bad experiences credible?

I know that you are a very smart man and consider many different angles. I was VERY scared to use salinity my first time. All the horror stories out there.... To my pleasent suprise, a few chemical balancing issues have since stabilized and things are consistent.

If I could just destroy the bubble algae, I'd be a happy camper.
 
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