Stray voltage DISCUSSION note- I want to discuss, not rant and attack!!! :)

[jmaneyapanda]

So, a topic that has reared itself here many times, and has been wearing on my nerves here is stray voltage. It seems to be a phantom situation that a lot of aquarists blame for a lot of problems. However, I just cant seem to wrap my head around it. In particular, how we deduce it impairs our livestock.

First and foremost, please understand I am NOT saying that people shouldnt care about voltage in their tank. They should. It is a REAL and definitive danger <u>TO THE AQUARIST</u>. By all means, use GFCI outlets and grounding probes on tanks: I do. I do NOT discourage their use.

However...There is some issue to be cleared up. An important disclaimer is that Im not an engineer, electrician, or nor do I claim to be. I just have my own understanding. But, some definitions need to be made:

1) voltage is NOT dangerous. The term "stray voltage" is ripe for misinterpretation. The CURRENT is whats dangerous to things. The travelling of electric current.

2) an incompleted (non grounded) circuit offers little to no danger. Think of a bird on an electric wire. If it is grounded, then the bird is electrocuted. If not, the bird sit on the wire unharmed.

So, in our aquariums (actually inside them/ in the water)- what can be happening, considering that tank, in and of itself, isnt grounded? Current wont be travelling through it, so does this "induced voltage" actually reach/affect the livestock? Does a fish swimming in ungrounded water feel any voltage that may be thrown by a bad heater, etc? We, as aquarists surely do, because we ARE grounded, and we complete the circuit. But, how can we claim that this has an effect, AT ALL, on aquarium inhabitants, in un grounded water?

Again, I am hoping for discussion, and enlightenment. If I am misunderstanding and misinterpreting, please clear the air. But, as I see it right now, I see the "stray voltage" issue as quite the scapegoat or red herring livestock issues that bears no real basis. As I mentioned- dangerous to AQUARISTS? <u>DEFINITELY</u></em>. Dangerous to livestock? Until Im shown otherwise, I have to say no.

 

[frantz]

The one thing I believe is incorrect (but I come with the same disclaimers as yourself) is the bird on the wire. I believe the wires are insulated. A bird would have a voltage difference and there would be a spark between the wire and the bird as it landed. I believe electric wire service folk are gradually brought up to the voltage of the system they work on. That being said, I believe some of the bio-electric systems of a fish can be negatively affected? But I'll be interested to see the pros input on this one.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Well, I oversimplified my analogy for brevity and pertinences sake, but I think my principle is sound.

http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_5180022">http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_5180022</a>

Just a quick search on that topic Again, there is a lot of debate to be had, but analogies aside, we can surely agree that grounding equals bad stuff.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

I know an electric eel can shock inhabitants in a tank. Also I have elephant nose fresh water fish that only hunts at night thru electrical pulses he admits. I know that registers in the water you can test it with a prope. I broken wire in your tank I would not see y it wouldn't fry a fish I figure that's your electric eel

 

[rbredding]

I thought that the danger to the fish was from stress (or an overly complex "interference" that happens within their nervous system due to "voltage" actually touching their skin)..

obviously, if the tank had current running through it, circuits would trip and livestock could(would?) die instantly..

 

[cr500_af]

My hunch is that if this is indeed a contributor to HLLE, then it may be due to very large amounts of stress placed on a fish when an electrical factor interferes with the normal function of their lateral line.
Imagine how stressed we would be if one of our main ways of sensing our surroundings didn't work right anymore.

Again, though, just an offhand idea about what may be happening.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

I picture the fisherman in the amazon grabbing an electric eel and watch his rear jiggle. Put that's what you get when you mess with a fish that's swimming electricity.

 

[haninja]

Actually, electricity can enhance coral growth...

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Rbredding;610616 wrote: I thought that the danger to the fish was from stress (or an overly complex "interference" that happens within their nervous system due to "voltage" actually touching their skin)..

obviously, if the tank had current running through it, circuits would trip and livestock could(would?) die instantly..

But....all marine water systems have chareg to them. Theyre ionic. And even the living anaimals will generate some bioelectric charge. Any motorized equipment will put voltage into teh water too, by electromegnetic means. And...why are only certain groups effected? And what mechanisms cauuses the tissue decay?

I know, a lot of questons, but these are what I need answered. And Ive never seen the answer.

cr500_af;610622 wrote: My hunch is that if this is indeed a contributor to HLLE, then it may be due to very large amounts of stress placed on a fish when an electrical factor interferes with the normal function of their lateral line.
Imagine how stressed we would be if one of our main ways of sensing our surroundings didn't work right anymore.

Again, though, just an offhand idea about what may be happening.

Again, how does stress translate to decaying tissue? And why doesnt other "Stress" trigger the same response? IE- malnutrition, presence of a predator, poor water quality, etc?

RaisedOnNintendo;610628 wrote: I picture the fisherman in the amazon grabbing an electric eel and watch his rear jiggle. Put that's what you get when you mess with a fish that's swimming electricity.

That is apples and organges really. But....why dont electric eels get HLLE? :lol2:

 

[raisedonnintendo]

What's hlle?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Head and Lateral Line Erosion. A ailment commonly (and in my book, erroneously) attributed to stray voltage.


So, to regroup a bit, can anyone explain to me how a fish can suffer when the fish isnt grounded?

 

[raisedonnintendo]

If you where the fish let's say you where in a pool and you got struck by lightning would you not die?

 

[raisedonnintendo]

Oh ok I'll be back n a minute. You wanna know about salt ions cause the conductivty. Test : stick two probes in to water, then in saltwater.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

RaisedOnNintendo;610650 wrote: If you where the fish let's say you where in a pool and you got struck by lightning would you not die?

Is the "pool" and elevated, insulated pool? Like aquariums are?

If you're in your car, you are insulated from lightning strikes, right? Same principle.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Also, for the record, all manmade bodies of water (swimming pools, etc) DO have grounds in them.

 

[mapleredta]

great information. Thank you for it.

 

[lilrobb]

Let me ask this - how can a bad heater cause "stray voltage"?
In order to complete the circuit it needs BOTH wires (hot and neutral) to be touching the water. If that is the case we'd see electrolysis bubbles.
If the circuit isn't closed - absolutely nothing should be happening inside a non-grounded tank...

 

[cr500_af]

jmaneyapanda;610642 wrote:

Again, how does stress translate to decaying tissue? And why doesnt other "Stress" trigger the same response? IE- malnutrition, presence of a predator, poor water quality, etc?

Not saying it directly does. I think, though, that there is some connection.

Kind of like in earlier times, diseases were thought to be caused by various things, usually turning out to be erroneous... but some of those erroneous connections led us eventually to the correct ones.

Please forgive the grammar in the above sentence.

 

[mojo]

I have a little bit of background in electrical theory, so I want to add a little bit here:

Voltage is actually known as "voltage potential" or "electrical potential difference". The potential</em> part refers to the difference of electrons between two points, and thus the ability to electricity to flow between those two points. "Ground", referring typically to earth ground, is usually measured as 0, because the earth is so darn big, and provides a solid reference. Something like your cell phone will have their own internal reference of what "ground" is, since they obviously don't touch earth ground.

So... what does this mean for your tank? If the tank is not grounded - that is, there's no way for any "stray voltage" to get from your tank to the earth ground, then there is no voltage potential. There's no flow of electricity. Period. You could put a digital meter between the tank and the ground, and may be able to show voltage, but that's because you just completed the circuit from tank to ground.

To put in terms us aquarists can understand, electricity terms can be analogous to water moving through pipes. Voltage would be the water pressure. Current is the rate of flow (gph), and resistance would be the pipe size. This is why they say "it's not the voltage that kills you - it's the current" - the current determines how much overall electricity is making it's way through you.

To carry the analogy further, in our system, if there's no "pipe" between your tank water, and earth ground, then the concepts of flow, pressure, and pipe size are undefined; that is... there is no flow.

Having said all this (and for the reasons above), I do not keep a grounding probe on my tank.

 

[brianjfinn]

jmaneyapanda;610654 wrote: Is the "pool" and elevated, insulated pool? Like aquariums are?

If you're in your car, you are insulated from lightning strikes, right? Same principle.

These actually are not the same principle. The electricity from a strike of lighting will travel along the outside of the car. This is why if you've ever seen one of the electricity presentations at a place like Fernbank, the person doing the demonstration will be inside a cage, and can actually have a bolt of electricity strike the cage and not be hurt. The electricity will travel along the outside of the cage, not reaching the person inside.

With an aquarium, stray voltage, or current, is caused by something in the water emitting electricity. Similar to plugging a wire into the wall and sticking it in your tank.

I'll have to do some research, because I can't remember whether the majority of our equipment uses DC or AC, but I'm sure this will have an effect. With one, I think the circuit would be completed, meaning there is constant current running through the water. At first thought, though I would expect this to kill everything instantly.