Stray voltage DISCUSSION note- I want to discuss, not rant and attack!!! :)

[cr500_af]

You guys know I'm not at all an electrical expert, but since we are talking about the effect on health, I'll throw this out.

There is measurable energy in the air under high-tension power lines, and there have been studies linking living very close to them with things like cancer.

In that case, there is no current, because there is no mechanical connection from the person (who is grounded) to the electrical source (the lines).

Since we are talking about a sensitive organ on a fish that operates quasi-electrically, is it not at least reasonable to think that maybe there is more to this than meets the eye?

 

[lilrobb]

Electro Smog,

interesting thought...

 

[ralph atl]

my thoughts:
I don't believe stray voltage, windex, pledge, air-freshener, Rubber made Brutes are the reasons that corals rtn & fish get hlle......albeit, a minute possibility.

However, I do believe current going through your tank would not be good. The couple of times that I touched my tank water and got shocked, I figured out quickly what was wrong (both times it was the heater). Both times nothing tripped including my gfci's.

 

[mojo]

Barry- I think there's something definitely possible here - the EMF radiation from power lines is similar (although much larger) than what we may see in our own tanks. Given that fish's lateral lines work on electroreceptors, it's possible that they would be affected in a given EMF field.

Having said that, I'm not sure corals would be affected the same way. I don't know of any electroreceptors on corals...

 

[lilrobb]

mysterybox;610777 wrote: my thoughts:
I don't believe stray voltage, windex, pledge, air-freshener, Rubber made Brutes are the reasons that corals rtn & fish get hlle......albeit, a minute possibility.

However, I do believe current going through your tank would not be good. The couple of times that I touched my tank water and got shocked, I figured out quickly what was wrong (both times it was the heater). Both times nothing tripped including my gfci's.

You missed the point, there can't be current through your tank unless the above conditions are met.

 

[skriz]

Acroholic;610712 wrote: I've always thought a ground probe only serves to make the fish feel any current in the tank by allowing leaking voltage in the tank to complete the circuit. It seems a ground probe would hurt, rather than help, tank inhabitants.

This is exactly why I don't use a grounding probe. Without the probe, only the potential exists, nothing more. As soon as you give the current a path to travel (probe), it travels..hurting your livestock. The potential alone won't kill or hurt anything.

Also, and an electirician will need to confirm this, I believe using a probe can hinder the effectiveness of a GFCI, pretty much rendering it useless.

 

[eagleeyemike]

This was a post listed below I had last month. I have been there done that. My first thoughts was that my tank had an ammonia spike which was indicated by all of my fish hiding and my yellow tang was no longer yellow but white. All the other fish were faded as well.

{OK thanks for the help. Let me add this rookie mistake that I just found. The color of the fish did not look good is what led me to checking the water. Trying to decide what shade of color you have in the tube seems to be tricky. If you look at it one way looks good look at it another way bad. So the fish did't look good all else is ok must be the worse of the 2 I think until I unplug everything and find that something is still running I think. It turns out that a light under the cabinet had fallen into the sump and was shorting out. Now how much damage has that done. Fish seem to be happy now}

 

[raisedonnintendo]

Ouch man sorry to hear that. We all make mistakes that light must of carried one nasty wake with it to hit your whole tank so bad. But at least everyone is doing fine now. Was it 80's-or 90's that people paid to buy those machines that shocked your abs to make your muscles work out?? So think of the positive side. They are alive Maby you just have really buff fish now

 

[darcurr]

cr500_af;610759 wrote: You guys know I'm not at all an electrical expert, but since we are talking about the effect on health, I'll throw this out.

There is measurable energy in the air under high-tension power lines, and there have been studies linking living very close to them with things like cancer.

In that case, there is no current, because there is no mechanical connection from the person (who is grounded) to the electrical source (the lines).

Since we are talking about a sensitive organ on a fish that operates quasi-electrically, is it not at least reasonable to think that maybe there is more to this than meets the eye?

<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana">This is true, but the field you are referring to decays exponentially with distance. There is a stronger field sitting in front of your TV than standing under most transmissions lines due to the height. There are some extremely high voltage lines that would be higher. However, the studies you are referring to are generally inconclusive, but no longer term studies have ever been made. So while the possibility of health effects exists, it is not fact.</span></span>
<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana"> </span></span>
<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana">The connection you are referring to is an electro-magnetic one. Leaving the details to the side, the high voltage line induces a voltage as a result of the current flowing thru it. So current can flow if the conditions are right just from standing in the presence of a strong EM field. This phenomenon is very dangerous, and people who work on these lines must take several precautions to prevent injury and death.</span></span>
<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana"> </span></span>
<span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: Verdana">Lastly, I agree the possibility of the fields effecting life in an aquarium is real. Like exposure to humans, no long term studies have been done. Maybe someone in Marine biology can use this for their dissertation...</span></span>

 

[darcurr]

Skriz;610793 wrote: This is exactly why I don't use a grounding probe. Without the probe, only the potential exists, nothing more. As soon as you give the current a path to travel (probe), it travels..hurting your livestock. The potential alone won't kill or hurt anything.

Also, and an electirician will need to confirm this, I believe using a probe can hinder the effectiveness of a GFCI, pretty much rendering it useless.

I would disagree on the fact that the probe would cause the GFI to trip (if you have one). Otherwise, the short continues until you get a nasty surprise when you touch the water. GFI are very fast devices. So the livestock will still experience the shock from the tank being electrified, but the duration would be very short. Only problem is the heater will probably short when your on vacation.....

 

[jmaneyapanda]

blakejohn;611454 wrote:

But as for "stray Voltage", I think the link to HLLE is that it has been recorded through out the reefing community that when the fish had this problem they most often also had "stray Voltage".

Health effects to fish and coral due to "stray voltage" I feel is impossible to determine. First off all of our testing equipment needs a ground to test for the stray voltage but the water really has no ground, so how can we test the electrical effect on the water?

Secondly our fish are all bio-logicaly different and so many other vairiables that what may affect one may not affect another. So even a test with the same fish in two tanks one with "stray voltage" and one with out would be inconclusive.

I feel that electricity in a tank whether from our pumps or an exposed wire, grounded or not, does have some impact on our fish and corals. It is an enviornemental change from thier norm and I am sure it effects them in some way shape or form.

I would disagree on the first statement. Links of "stray voltage" to HLLE are anecdotal, at best. There have been numerous things throughout the decades in this hobby that have been disproven as unfounded myth. Inches of fish per gallon, and the pillaging bristleworms come to mind immediately.

There has been a significant amount of research done into this recently which reflects other causative agents. But, honestly, there still is no definitive cause. Regardless, it has certainly NOT been established that there is a definitive correlation between the two.

As for your second point, I agree, but don't understand the point. Yes, it is surely unnatural as compared to wild animals. But so is the water, the light, the food, the glass (or plastic) box we keep them in....etc.

My original question and point in this thread was to inquire as to how it can be causative to the issues SO many blame it for. Such as coral death, bleaching, fish death, disease, the list goes on and on. And all the while, I can't see or understand, and have yet to be informed, as to how it could effect the livestock AT ALL. Yes, electromagnetically induced and biologically produce current can and will be produced in the ionic water these fish live in. But the levels are so low, arguably negligible, and apparent that they can't be causative. So, the question remains- what effect EXACTLY does "stray voltage" have on our aquarium inhabitants, and how so? Right now, the answer really leans towards none.

 

[rolo65]

my thought would be that in regard to tangs considering they are the main but not only benefactors of HLLE...the lateral line they have is much more sensitive to electricity than that of a more carnivorous fish...by this i mean that a carnivorous fish uses its lateral line to pick up on electrical fields given off by prey animals...I.E. ampule of lorenzini in sharks....they are highly sensitive to impulses but only enough to pick up on the type of prey they hunt....now think about it this way....tangs/surgeonfish are herbivores for the most part correct?.....so they eat seaweed...and seaweed is mostly found in high water flow areas.....(reefs, shore breaks, rockwalls)....now maybe, just maybe.....(and if you think im an idiot by all means tell me)...but is it possible that the friction created by seaweed and algae(and yes it does cause a small amount of friction) in saltwater makes a minute electrical impulse...that is almost immeasurable...or just hasnt tried to be...and tangs are able to pick up on this minute impulse ..(think about socks on carpet... for the friction element....it creates electricity)....now....is it possible that the electrical field given off by patches of algae along the reef show up to a tang in a way that it would resemble looking though an infrared lens....(hotpoints are brighter)...so with all that rambling....is it conceivable that a tangs lateral line is much much more sensitive to electricity than other fish...therefore the possibility of any electricity(if it can be picked up on a voltage meter then its there....theres no getting around that)in a enclosed system in greater than what its evolved to contend with would damage the lateral line....

 

[jennm]

Well, as you know my experience is also anecdotal

I'll start by saying I've never seen corals or inverts die as a result of stray voltage.

What I have seen are instances of HLLE and parasitic outbreaks that occurred at the same time as stray voltage was present in the tank, and issues resolved themselves after the situation was corrected. In many cases with HLLE, diet was good, water quality was good (and had been being tested on an ongoing basis), and when symptoms persisted despite ruling out those issues, the next step was to look for faulty equipment. Same fish, same tank, same water, same diet, cleared up after the faulty device was replaced (usually heaters, but occasionally other devices). In those cases, carbon use did not change. That is to say, if they were using carbon, they continued to, and if they didn't they didn't (most do use carbon).

I can't explain the science. Maybe it's just a whole bunch of coincidences. Maybe it's not. I'll defer to others who might be able to explain the science, I can't. I just know what I've witnessed.

And whatever the cause(s) of HLLE, it does not always strike every fish in the affected tank. Usually I see it in tangs and angels, and other inhabitants can be perfectly fine. Once I've seen a tomato clown with HLLE (which reversed shortly after it came to us - no scars). I can't say as I've ever seen it in gobies or blennies, or any other fish we frequently keep. Mostly tangs and angels (and that one clown - her water quality was really bad, but I don't know much about other variables).

I really *would* like to know the exact cause(s) of the condition because it saddens me to have fish brought to me that are afflicted.

Jenn

 

[jef4y]

Back a number of posts, when people were talking about being in a car struck by lightning or with some other electrical current induced, the basic principle is that of a "Faraday Cage". Google it for more info or see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage</a>

Basically it protects the individual by isolating it from ground.

Another piece of information regarding voltage/current. In order for a static shock to be seen or generally felt, it has to be around 30,000 volts. Yet about 1/10 of an amp of current can be fatal (of course, dependent on MANY variables).

And I thank Blake for pointing out that the grounding probe is for HUMAN protection, not the fish or anything else...

 

[acroholic]

blakejohn;611454 wrote: First for those that dispute the use of a grounding probe, the probe is designed to help protect you, the aquariest.

JeF4y;611543 wrote:
And I thank Blake for pointing out that the grounding probe is for HUMAN protection, not the fish or anything else...

Actually, they are marketed towards the protection of fish.

From the Marine Depot Website, Ultralife Grounding probe:

Description
Stray voltage in the aquarium can be attributed to causing various problems. Problems such as: finrot, hole-in-the-head disease and numerous others. The `Ultra Ground` Titanium Grounding Probe can help eliminate these distressing problems. These probes feature a SOLID Titanium rod, insulated transition joint and 10ft of grounding lead to insure proper performance. Don`t take a chance on having stray voltage in your aquarium. 1/8" x 9" Titanium Probe w/ 10 ft wire.

 

[jef4y]

Marketing should never be confused with reality... LOL...

 

[lilrobb]

JeF4y;611543 wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage</a>

Basically it protects the individual by isolating it from ground.[/QUOTE]

Not true,
a Faraday cage directs the current AROUND the object rather than through it.
This is not isolation...

 

[jef4y]

LilRobb;611570 wrote: Not true,
a Faraday cage directs the current AROUND the object rather than through it.
This is not isolation...

semantics...

 

[acroholic]

JeF4y;611562 wrote: Marketing should never be confused with reality... LOL...

I'll take me a good old GFCI any day of the week!

 

[jef4y]

Acroholic;611582 wrote: I'll take me a good old GFCI any day of the week!

same here...