Stray voltage DISCUSSION note- I want to discuss, not rant and attack!!! :)

[brianjfinn]

mojo;610665 wrote: I have a little bit of background in electrical theory, so I want to add a little bit here:

Voltage is actually known as "voltage potential" or "electrical potential difference". The potential</em> part refers to the difference of electrons between two points, and thus the ability to electricity to flow between those two points. "Ground", referring typically to earth ground, is usually measured as 0, because the earth is so darn big, and provides a solid reference. Something like your cell phone will have their own internal reference of what "ground" is, since they obviously don't touch earth ground.

So... what does this mean for your tank? If the tank is not grounded - that is, there's no way for any "stray voltage" to get from your tank to the earth ground, then there is no voltage potential. There's no flow of electricity. Period. You could put a digital meter between the tank and the ground, and may be able to show voltage, but that's because you just completed the circuit from tank to ground.

To put in terms us aquarists can understand, electricity terms can be analogous to water moving through pipes. Voltage would be the water pressure. Current is the rate of flow (gph), and resistance would be the pipe size. This is why they say "it's not the voltage that kills you - it's the current" - the current determines how much overall electricity is making it's way through you.

To carry the analogy further, in our system, if there's no "pipe" between your tank water, and earth ground, then the concepts of flow, pressure, and pipe size are undefined; that is... there is no flow.

Having said all this (and for the reasons above), I do not keep a grounding probe on my tank.

But doesn't the ground wire on our equipment complete the circuit? If there's a piece of equipment throwing voltage and it has the third prong on the plug, isn't that grounded? Therefore, wouldn't there be current running through the tank?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

brianjfinn;610670 wrote: These actually are not the same principle. The electricity from a strike of lighting will travel along the outside of the car. This is why if you've ever seen one of the electricity presentations at a place like Fernbank, the person doing the demonstration will be inside a cage, and can actually have a bolt of electricity strike the cage and not be hurt. The electricity will travel along the outside of the cage, not reaching the person inside.

With an aquarium, stray voltage, or current, is caused by something in the water emitting electricity. Similar to plugging a wire into the wall and sticking it in your tank.

I'll have to do some research, because I can't remember whether the majority of our equipment uses DC or AC, but I'm sure this will have an effect. With one, I think the circuit would be completed, meaning there is constant current running through the water. At first thought, though I would expect this to kill everything instantly.

Yes. I was using that as an example for his lightning strike reference. Not a stray voltage reference

 

[jmaneyapanda]

This being said, can you comment on whether these fish within the water can be subjected to the "stray voltage", with no ground?

mojo;610665 wrote: I have a little bit of background in electrical theory, so I want to add a little bit here:

Voltage is actually known as "voltage potential" or "electrical potential difference". The potential</em> part refers to the difference of electrons between two points, and thus the ability to electricity to flow between those two points. "Ground", referring typically to earth ground, is usually measured as 0, because the earth is so darn big, and provides a solid reference. Something like your cell phone will have their own internal reference of what "ground" is, since they obviously don't touch earth ground.

So... what does this mean for your tank? If the tank is not grounded - that is, there's no way for any "stray voltage" to get from your tank to the earth ground, then there is no voltage potential. There's no flow of electricity. Period. You could put a digital meter between the tank and the ground, and may be able to show voltage, but that's because you just completed the circuit from tank to ground.

To put in terms us aquarists can understand, electricity terms can be analogous to water moving through pipes. Voltage would be the water pressure. Current is the rate of flow (gph), and resistance would be the pipe size. This is why they say "it's not the voltage that kills you - it's the current" - the current determines how much overall electricity is making it's way through you.

To carry the analogy further, in our system, if there's no "pipe" between your tank water, and earth ground, then the concepts of flow, pressure, and pipe size are undefined; that is... there is no flow.

Having said all this (and for the reasons above), I do not keep a grounding probe on my tank.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

LilRobb;610658 wrote: Let me ask this - how can a bad heater cause "stray voltage"?
In order to complete the circuit it needs BOTH wires (hot and neutral) to be touching the water. If that is the case we'd see electrolysis bubbles.
If the circuit isn't closed - absolutely nothing should be happening inside a non-grounded tank...

Good point you can make hydrogen in water. That shows how electricity travels now imagine your fish has ick you dose with Cooper n there are 2 livewires in a tank.

 

[brianjfinn]

jmaneyapanda;610676 wrote: This being said, can you comment on whether these fish within the water can be subjected to the "stray voltage", with no ground?

I think this goes back to my question. In order for there to be current, you need a completed circuit. But doesn't the piece of equipment itself complete the circuit? If it didn't, I don't think we'd even see "stray voltage." I could be wrong, though.

 

[mojo]

brianjfinn;610673 wrote: But doesn't the ground wire on our equipment complete the circuit? If there's a piece of equipment throwing voltage and it has the third prong on the plug, isn't that grounded? Therefore, wouldn't there be current running through the tank?

Only if the ground wire is also touching the tank water. In that case (both a hot wire and ground are in the tank), the electricity will take the path of least resistance from hot to ground, bypassing your tank, and hopefully throwing your circuit breaker. This is typically the reason that higher powered appliances have grounded plugs.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

You asked does a fish swimming feel voltage from a bad heater. So I assume wires are exposed to water here. The closer he swims the more he feels a 50w heater n a 500w heater are to big difference. Also electricity travels different in ro there not much to work with ion wise. In fresh water tanks there are trace minerals the electricity uses to excite. In salt it actually use the salts ions and travels way better. Now if you dose with Cooper you made the mix even more harmful and it works it's way into the blood stream itself of the fish. Water is more dangerous then solids because of surface are it covers every nook and cranny.

 

[lilrobb]

RaisedOnNintendo;610682 wrote: You asked does a fish swimming feel voltage from a bad heater. So I assume wires are exposed to water here. The closer he swims the more he feels a 50w heater n a 500w heater are to big difference. Also electricity travels different in ro there not much to work with ion wise. In fresh water tanks there are trace minerals the electricity uses to excite. In salt it actually use the salts ions and travels way better. Now if you dose with Cooper you made the mix even more harmful and it works it's way into the blood stream itself of the fish. Water is more dangerous then solids because of surface are it covers every nook and cranny.

You need to stop and read what other people write before replying (I am avoiding the word "answering")

 

[mojo]

jmaneyapanda;610676 wrote: This being said, can you comment on whether these fish within the water can be subjected to the "stray voltage", with no ground?

From my understanding, there's no possibility of "stray voltage".

Try this experiment: take a 9 volt battery. Touch both positive and negative contacts to your tongue. You'll get a mild shock. Now touch only one contact. No shock. Why not? Because the electricity can't flow between positive and "ground" (negative). Similarly, you can safely touch a car battery terminal, even though the currents can be much higher.


Now, when we get into AC voltages, my understanding breaks down. My best guess (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, because AC changes positive and negative on the same line 60 times/sec (thus the 60Hz), you get the effect of the tissue loading up with electrons (just like the battery above), but when the polarity switches, those electrons are pulled back out. This movement of electricity creates a localized voltage potential, and the tingling sensation is the muscles contracting and relaxing due to the electricity. I presume something similar could happen in saltwater. Again, this is only a guess.

 

[mojo]

One thing I should note is that "stray voltage" via EMF (electromagnetic fields) radiation is possibly a different story, since electricity can be created/transferred through EMF (this is how alternators work). If there were a wonky bulb over your tank throwing a large EMF signature, I suppose it's possible that the EMF going through the water could create a voltage potential, since we have an entry and exit point for the field (very basic description)....

But... now we're really getting out of my domain of knowledge, and this should be treated as conjecture...

 

[raisedonnintendo]

So there's always a wet tounge licking in a tank.

 

[mojo]

RaisedOnNintendo;610682 wrote: You asked does a fish swimming feel voltage from a bad heater. So I assume wires are exposed to water here. The closer he swims the more he feels a 50w heater n a 500w heater are to big difference.

The difference between a 50w and 500w heater is the resistance of the of the element inside. If the wires are exposed, it's the same 120v, no matter if it's a 5w or 1500w heater.

Now if you dose with Cooper you made the mix even more harmful and it works it's way into the blood stream itself of the fish.

Please stop with this copper nonsense. Dissolved copper (or any metal) has no bearing on the electrical carrying capacity of the water. Copper is a good conductor of electricity because of the configuration of it's electron shell when it's a solid. When it's dissolved, this configuration is irrelevant compared to the amount of other ions in the water.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

My point exactly. I cannot see how "stray voltage" will effect fish or aquarium inhabitants.

mojo;610685 wrote: From my understanding, there's no possibility of "stray voltage".

Try this experiment: take a 9 volt battery. Touch both positive and negative contacts to your tongue. You'll get a mild shock. Now touch only one contact. No shock. Why not? Because the electricity can't flow between positive and "ground" (negative). Similarly, you can safely touch a car battery terminal, even though the currents can be much higher.


Now, when we get into AC voltages, my understanding breaks down. My best guess (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, because AC changes positive and negative on the same line 60 times/sec (thus the 60Hz), you get the effect of the tissue loading up with electrons (just like the battery above), but when the polarity switches, those electrons are pulled back out. This movement of electricity creates a localized voltage potential, and the tingling sensation is the muscles contracting and relaxing due to the electricity. I presume something similar could happen in saltwater. Again, this is only a guess.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

From my understanding, this is the only benefit to a ground probe. To drain induced current from such events. Grounds probe do NOT assist with "leaky" devices at all though. Is that benefit worth the potential downside of a probe? For some yes, for some no.

mojo;610688 wrote: One thing I should note is that "stray voltage" via EMF (electromagnetic fields) radiation is possibly a different story, since electricity can be created/transferred through EMF (this is how alternators work). If there were a wonky bulb over your tank throwing a large EMF signature, I suppose it's possible that the EMF going through the water could create a voltage potential, since we have an entry and exit point for the field (very basic description)....

But... now we're really getting out of my domain of knowledge, and this should be treated as conjecture...

 

[acroholic]

I've always thought a ground probe only serves to make the fish feel any current in the tank by allowing leaking voltage in the tank to complete the circuit. It seems a ground probe would hurt, rather than help, tank inhabitants.

 

[brianjfinn]

mojo;610685 wrote:
Now, when we get into AC voltages, my understanding breaks down. My best guess (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that, because AC changes positive and negative on the same line 60 times/sec (thus the 60Hz), you get the effect of the tissue loading up with electrons (just like the battery above), but when the polarity switches, those electrons are pulled back out. This movement of electricity creates a localized voltage potential, and the tingling sensation is the muscles contracting and relaxing due to the electricity. I presume something similar could happen in saltwater. Again, this is only a guess.

There it is! That's what I was thinking.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

Please stop with this copper nonsense."mojo" give you one guess how that comment makes me feel mr president. No need to sugarcoat go ahead n say it. I'll go back to the title.

For everyone else water itself contains 1*10- 7 mol/ liter positively charged h+ and the same amount of negativly charged HO- ( ph7) leading to a conductivity of approximately 0,055 n siemens/cm (18,2 MOhm) for pure water at 25 deg c, compared with rainwater 35-100 u siemens/cm the sea 42000 u siemens/cm

The high conductivity of salty water is the salt ions but water in any case has an amount of ions. You can test your self the diff between ro water and one with a lot of minerals or salt water. If I'm missing something please politely add to I'd love to learn.

 

[lilrobb]

RaisedOnNintendo;610735 wrote: Please stop with this copper nonsense."mojo" give you one guess how that comment makes me feel mr president. No need to sugarcoat go ahead n say it. I'll go back to the title.

For everyone else water itself contains 1*10- 7 mol/ liter positively charged h+ and the same amount of negativly charged HO- ( ph7) leading to a conductivity of approximately 0,055 n siemens/cm (18,2 MOhm) for pure water at 25 deg c, compared with rainwater 35-100 u siemens/cm the sea 42000 u siemens/cm

The high conductivity of salty water is the salt ions but water in any case has an amount of ions. You can test your self the diff between ro water and one with a lot of minerals or salt water. If I'm missing something please politely add to I'd love to learn.

Since you can quote google - please learn to put it in relation to the question asked...

As per the above - it doesn't matter whether you introduce copper, lead or gold ions into water - they all change the conductivity.

 

[mojo]

RaisedOnNintendo;610735 wrote: "mojo" give you one guess how that comment makes me feel mr president. No need to sugarcoat go ahead n say it.

Sure - I'll say this to anyone: Don't go around telling people something as fact when you don't have any experience or evidence to backup your claim. To purport something incorrectly as fact is not helpful to anyone, and in certain cases, can be harmful. In these cases, yes, I will ask someone to stop posting what simply isn't true.

Your followup post may be technically correct, but not germane to this discussion.

 

[raisedonnintendo]

"you don't have any experience" "I will ask someone to stop posting what simply isn't true" again title of the post this is support to be an open discussion is that not what I am doing?? Experience for real dude? Leave it else where you are the president!!!!!! Why do people not join up anymore? Why do people not want to join a discussion if they are affraid they will be attacked? Here is a clue? Dude please bring it elsewhere not on here pm me or something tell me in person whatever. Let people have a difference in opinion without being ridiculed. Can we go on this discussion with anymore un needed rants please?