What salt do you use? Why?

[kappaknight]

It takes a lot of energy to burn off 200 gallons of water and then grinding large crystals of salt into tiny specs. Hardly worth the effort.

BTW, in case you didn't know. You can claim ANYTHING in advertising. We can say this is the number 1 reef board on the net and that 4 out of 5 reef geeks choose one salt over another. While there may be an ounce of truth in everything depending on how you read it and how it's interpreted, I would put more merit in the fine print and the ingredients list.

 

[ouling]

You don't need to burn anything. Set it under the sun in a shallow tank, it'll evap pretty quickly. I know they don't use 100% evap salt, but there is some in it, and it's not hard to evap sea salt.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

ouling;46289 wrote: Only water evaporate-pure water, and all elements are left behind.

panda, I did the math, and if a 50lb bucket can make almost 200gallon of salt, we must assume that 200g of seawater evaporates into 50lb of salt. make sense to you? I'm not sure where you get the thing about how little is left behind by evaporate seawater; but if you ever look at your salt splashes around your tank you will see one drip leaves a pretty good sized ring of salt.

"Natural, evaporated sea salt is enriched with refined minerals to safely elevate calcium levels and buffer capacity."
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=15483&N=2004+113009">http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=15483&N=2004+113009</a>

Being a "skeptic" you may think elsewise, but if they advertise something like this there have to be some truth in it, and the procedure, after doing "the math", is not a serious problem-at least not to Red Sea.

Where you think they get the sea salt that you eat at Outback Steak House? you think they chemically make those too?[/QUOTE]

Well, I certainly do not wish to get into an argument, so I will make my point and then head on my way. Do you really think 200 gallons of sea water will make five gallons of salt powedr in the manner you described? Fluid chemistry does not work that way. Make a glass of koolaid with 1 cup of sugar and the packet of powder, and then leave it out to evaporate. Is there 1 cup of solid left? I dont think so. Actaully do it. Make a gallon of seawater and let it evaporate. See what you get. Dissolution in cases such as this are not reversible at equal states. You mentioned the salt creep. Do you feel you can just collect salt creep, and use this as a salt mix? That ring of salt is not quite as much as you think it is.

I am sure Oceanic is a great salt, and they surely do appear to claim they make it will evaporated oceanic water. But, lets be honest, as kappa said, companies have sales pitches, and rarely are they 100% accurate. How many products for reefers claim to reverse head and lateral line erosion? No one even knows what causes it, yet these companies have "cured" it! Pretty comical.

Furthermore, to get really technically scientific about it, if a company wanted to evaporate ocean water to a pure form, just minus the H20, it would need to be under an absolute strerile and contained enviroment. Do you know how many contaminants and pollutants float in the air? Just leave it out in the sun? That "salt mix" would contain more pollen, dust, dirt, dander, bacteria, spores, mold, etc etc etc than any artificial brand to say the least. The company would practically have to distill the saltwater, and even still contaminants from the distillery would leach. Ever think of using distilled water for topoff? Think hard, because many distilling companies use copper distilling equipment, and we know what copper does to reefs (at elevated levels).

Overall, here, I am certainly not saying Oceanic has good or bad salt. I am sure it is wonderful. But the claim that it is solely made in the manner suggested is rather ludicrous, and very propoganda-ish. They may have based their formula on it, or partially done so, but for a company to do so would take immense resources, which would translate to immense consumer costs.

This is all just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt (pun intended).

 

[ouling]

Yes if a company wants to evap salt they need a clean enviroment; but a big vat that is covered with something and a hose on the top to let the water run out works also. Whatever gets into the water thats not suppose to be there is considered trace elements (I know this because how companies make synthetic salt, they call the impurities as "extra trace elements")

Because of consumer law, (Oceanic may not do it) but Red Sea cannot claim they use evaporated sea water without actually having some in it.

I priced wholesale sea salt from my restaurant suppliers and it's $50 for 50 lb bag of it. If its safe to eat, i would think they took some care into making it, so this is absolutely possible and economical to evaporate ocean water.

It is cheaper to make synthetic stuff, and the impurities in them are called trace elements, but it is certainly not expensive or impossible to evaporate seawater and put it into use if there is a market for $70 buckets of salt.

 

[FutureInterest]

Well clearly you were wrong about how "natural" Oceanic salt was. Especially considering they don't even manufacture it themselves lol.

Anyways, the more important point is : Why would anyone want to use evaporated salt in their tank? It's one of the most impure sources of sodium chloride out there. It's so loaded with organics and minerals that it would be the last thing I would want in my tank, even if they supposedly "clean" it . What do you get when you add water to evaporated sea salt? Used sea water. No thanks. Please give me the clean and fully synthetic stuff that has successfully maintained tanks since before the vast majority of us were born.

Woo 400 posts!

 

[FutureInterest]

Well clearly you were wrong about how "natural" Oceanic salt was. Especially considering they don't even manufacture it themselves lol.

Anyways, the more important point is : Why would anyone want to use evaporated salt in their tank? It's one of the most impure sources of sodium chloride out there. It's so loaded with organics and minerals that it would be the last thing I would want in my tank, even if they supposedly "clean" it . What do you get when you add water to evaporated sea salt? Used sea water. No thanks, I do water changes to remove fish piss not to put more in... Please give me the clean and fully synthetic stuff that has successfully maintained tanks since before the vast majority of us were born.

Woo 400 posts!

 

[jmaneyapanda]

ouling;46422 wrote: Yes if a company wants to evap salt they need a clean enviroment; but a big vat that is covered with something and a hose on the top to let the water run out works also. Whatever gets into the water thats not suppose to be there is considered trace elements (I know this because how companies make synthetic salt, they call the impurities as "extra trace elements")

Because of consumer law, (Oceanic may not do it) but Red Sea cannot claim they use evaporated sea water without actually having some in it.

I priced wholesale sea salt from my restaurant suppliers and it's $50 for 50 lb bag of it. If its safe to eat, i would think they took some care into making it, so this is absolutely possible and economical to evaporate ocean water.

It is cheaper to make synthetic stuff, and the impurities in them are called trace elements, but it is certainly not expensive or impossible to evaporate seawater and put it into use if there is a market for $70 buckets of salt.

Ok, let me ask you this- would you use your restaraunt sea salt to make water for your aquarium? According to your definitions, it is exactly the same as Oceanic brand salt. I dont know first hand, but I would suggest looking into how resteraunt sea salt is made. I am guessing it is not the "sit and wait" method you propose, but perhaps a spraying and heating, or chemical process to it. But on this, I am just speculating.

I just ask you try (a small scale) some of things you suggest. A large vat with a cover and a small vent hose will essentially be a greenhouse, and evaporation would take forever. The only thing that would speed it up would be to force air through, to reduce humidity, and this would also force contaminants in. If whatever gets into the water is considered "trace elements", then the whole basis of your preference is ruined. You claimed originally in your post that Oceanic is the best because it is only ocean water, minus the H20, no unnatural impurities. But now the impurities are called "trace elements"? I dont get it.

For whatever reason, Oceanic has made the inference that this salt is evaporated sea water, and as I stated early, heck, maybe it is. Maybe Oceanic has figured out a way to do it economically. I sincerely doubt it for several reasons. Unless there is a salt manufacturer reading this, this is a impossible to answer question for any of us, but think of this- If it is so easy and natural and positive to evaporate sea water to make salt mix, why doesn't every other company do it too? Why employ chemists and engineers and buy machinery to create a synthetic mix when all they need to do is collect some seawter and put it in the sun?

 

[FutureInterest]

Keep in mind also that when salt water dissolves... you cannot simply reconstitute it with water. Many of the minerals will precipitate out and react with each other during that process. They will as such form insoluble compounds that will never readily dissolve again. Calcium carbonate for example. As such, test it out yourself. Take 2 gallons from your tank and evaporate the water. Then try to reconstitute it. It just doesn't work that way.

Ever wonder why you need to mix salt way in advance to using it? Its because the compounds are designed to react with the water, the air, and each other and it needs time to do this. After the chemical reactions occur and everything stabilizes then its ready to be added... This natural stuff may use a portion of evap sea water as a source of some its minerals. Who knows it might even be cheaper to collect some of the necessary minerals that way. Is it better? Hardly, I think it might be more impure, but the point is that its just a different way to do it. Don't be deluded though into thinking its better though simply because its "natural" or "evaporated". That's just silly.

 

[ouling]

Why did you say deluded or silly? I simply said it is not hard to make as panda implied. Synthetic sea salt have very high percentage of heavy metal compared to seawater, and other necessary elements are pretty low. Calcium is added back into the evaporate salt by red sea, and if you look at the calcium chart it is pretty obvious (unless your skeptical of everything). If it is made properly with necessary ingredients added, then is it better? Of course natural ocean salt is better.

 

[jeep9783]

U know i use the cheapest salt at the point n time where i can find it, never had any problems, salt is salt to me, if it is missing a certain element i can go n buy that element other wise i can just not do water changes, point being i doubt very seriously that any of us is going to auctually go n evap salt to test this, i know very little but i know that my salt measures 1.0245 as of this morning and i couldn't tell u what brand it was...Just trying to ease the tension before someone looses sleep over this topic

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Ouling- I am not trying to be difficult- really I am not. I just dont think the process is as simple as you are stating. As Future and myself have requested, please experiment yourself, and see what happens. I have (accidentally) left a bucket of slatwater froma water change on my porch for over a month, and I can hardly bvelieve that anything practically usable can come from trying to create salt mix in this manner.

Reagrding your comment on elemental content of the salt- where did you get this information. Going off one of the links Cameron stated on page 1, it actually showed Oceanic to be a bit higher in many metals.

I am getting the feeling this is turning into a "He said/She said" type of dsicussion, and I have no interest in making anyone feel any worse about this hobby, so I wont comment anymore after this. I would just ask you to consider the points mentioned by many here, and try some variables and samples for yourself, to see what is what. Thanks and good luck.

 

[dough]

I think that there is a fine line in the "natural" vs. "synthetic" wording that we see not only on labels but in many discussions on this subject.

I use to be in the chemical business and I have been racking my brain since Ouling got on this "natural" wording off the label. I can't think of any company out that manufactures sodium chloride. Most if not all salt producing chemical companies use one of three methods that I know of. Mining old lake or sea beds, solar evaporation or mechanical evaporation. So, I can't imagine that Oceanic has some special operation that evaporates sea water to make salt on it's one. The economics of such a venture are not there for Oceanic in order to remain competitive in the market. They have to be buying their starting salt from a major chemical salt producer. Besides sodium choride or salt is a very commodity chemical. I can remember seeing salt of less than .10# in 50# bags.

So back to my orginial statement of natural vs. synthetic, I beleive that all salt is "natural" and we use natural salt to make synthetic salt water. So I think it is a play on words and good advertising.

Hey Oceanics salt is "natural", XYZ bags does not say anything about "natural" so Oceanics must be better.

It is perception.

Go to

 

[FutureInterest]

Good post dough. +1. Almost everyone here is saying the same thing. It's just salt, the differences between them are not large enough to really matter in the long run.

So what if some of the sodium chloride is mined or some of it comes from evaporation... it's all tainted, so deal with it. Just look at the results in the links supra, Red Sea and Oceanic which are more "natural" by ouling's standards have crazy high metals as well. We all know ouling has been having issues with maintaining certain levels of this and that, and suffered a minor crash after a large water change, so perhaps he's looking for a scapegoat and the "unnatural" "unevaporated" salt is taking the blame. I don't know what's going on in his lil head. What I do know is that I'm done with this thread as well. There's no convincing a narrow minded slave of good marketing... **** you good advertising!!!

 

[ouling]

yea thats true. No more aruging from this point on. Mainly because I don't want to get into beefing when I see someone at the meeting. So everyone WINS!!! and i'ma go create an account and give myself +10 rep points. Yays!

 

[ouling]

FutureInterest;46532 wrote: I don't know what's going on in his lil head. What I do know is that I'm done with this thread as well. There's no convincing a narrow minded slave of good marketing... **** you good advertising!!!

You don't know whats going on in my little head? A slave for marketing?
How do you know I have a crash every time I do a big water change? Furthermore why would you assume I blame it on the salt? If the salt i'm using is Oceanic but it crashes after each water change, why would I praise it here?

You need to keep the person comments to yourself. First you don't know me; second you havn't seen my tank or know anything about the way I keep fish and corals.

I made no personal attack on you so don't do it to me.

 

[justonemoretank]

Ummm ... ??? :unsure:

So I wonder how much longer this thread has before someone calls in the fuzz ? rder:

 

[mattrg_2000]

From the Morton Salt site...

Salt Production & Processinghttp://www.mortonsalt.com/images/temp_images/chapter_spacer.gif" alt="" />There are three methods used to produce salt, solar, evaporation and rock mining.

[B]Solar Evaporation Method[/B]
This is the oldest method of salt production. It has been used since salt crystals were first noticed in trapped pools of sea water. Its use is practical only in warm climates where the evaporation rate exceeds the precipitation rate, either annually or for extended periods, and ideally, where there are steady prevailing winds. Solar salt production is, typically, the capturing of salt water in shallow ponds where the sun evaporates most of the water. The concentrated brine precipitates the salt which is then gathered by mechanical harvesting machines. Any impurities that may be present in the brine are drained off and discarded prior to harvesting.
Usually two types of ponds are used. First is the concentrating pond, where the salty water from the ocean or salt lake is concentrated. The second is called the crystallizing pond, where the salt is actually produced.
Crystallizing ponds range from to 40 to 200 acres with a foot-thick floor of salt resulting from years of depositions. During the salt-making season of four to five months, brine flows continuously through these ponds. This is a saturated brine solution, containing as much salt as it can hold, so pure salt crystallizes out of the solution as the water evaporates. Natural chemical impurities are returned to the salt water source.


[B]Rock Salt Mining Method[/B]
Morton also uses the second oldest method of producing salt – underground mining. This is probably the most dramatic method of gathering salt. Large machines travel through vast cave-like passageways performing various operations.
Salt mines are among the safest of mines. They are also the most comfortable to work in. While mine temperature varies with depth, the average temperature remains about 70° F year round.
Salt may appear in veins, as does coal. Veins are the original bedded salt deposits. Salt also may be found in domes, which were formed when Earth pressures forced salt up through cracks in the bedrock from depths as great as 30,000 or 40,000 feet; they resemble plugs of almost-circular shape a few hundred yards to a mile across. Some domes occur close to the surface. Both domes and veins are mined in a similar way. Most domes in North America are located in the south from Alabama to Texas with many out under water in the Gulf of Mexico .
To enter a salt mine, miners go down a shaft from the Earth’s surface to the salt bed. There are two shafts in each Morton mine – one for personnel and one to lower materials and equipment into the mine, as well as to hoist the mined rock salt to the surface. The shafts also are used to deliver a constant supply of fresh air to the miners while they work hundreds to thousands of feet below the surface. Most mine shafts are lined with a concrete wall called a shaft liner.
Salt is mined by the room and pillar method. It is removed in a checkerboard pattern to leave permanent, solid salt pillars for mine roof support. Usually 45 to 65 percent of the salt is removed. The room height may average 18 feet in a bedded deposit to 100 feet in a dome mine.
Normally, the first operation is undercutting. Large machines cut a slot 10 or more feet in depth across the bottom of a solid salt wall. This leaves a smooth floor for picking up the salt after blasting.
Next, small holes are drilled into the salt wall to a depth of 10 or more feet and explosives are loaded into the drilled holes. After the work shift, the explosives are set off electrically. Several hundred to several thousand of tons of rock salt are blasted and fall onto the mine floor.
Equipment is used to load and haul the salt to machines that crush and feed the salt onto a conveyor belt. The lumps are conveyed to a series of stations for crushing and additional sizing of the lumps. The salt is then placed in a storage bin to await hoisting to the surface.
The above ground processing of the rock salt consists of screening the mined salt into various marketable sizes by sorting through mechanically operated screens. When separated, each size is conveyed to its individual storage bin to await packaging for shipment or to be loaded as bulk salt into railroad cars, trucks, river barges or lake boats for shipment to customers.

[B]Vacuum Evaporation Method[/B]
Another method of salt production used by Morton Salt is the evaporation of salt brine by steam heat in large commercial evaporators, called vacuum pans. This method yields a very high purity salt, fine in texture, and principally used in those applications requiring the highest quality salt.
The first part of the operation is known as solution mining. Wells are drilled from several hundred to 1,000 feet apart into the salt deposit. These wells are connected via lateral drilling, a recently developed technology. Once the wells are connected, the solution mining operation begins: water is pumped down one well, the salt below is dissolved, and the resulting brine is forced to the surface through the other well. It is then piped into large tanks for storage.
Next, the brine is pumped into vacuum pans. These are huge closed vessels under vacuum about three stories high. They are normally arranged in a series of three, four or five, with each one in the line under greater vacuum than the preceding one. This series of vacuum pans operates on a very simple principle: Whenever pressure is lowered, the temperature at which water will boil is also lowered. For instance, under normal air pressure at sea level, water boils at 212°F. But at ten thousand feet above sea level, where air pressure is much less, water boils at 194°F. Vacuum pans may operate at as low as 100°F.
In the vacuum pan process, steam is fed to the first pan. This causes the brine in the pan to boil. The steam from the boiling brine is then used to heat the brine in the second pan. The pressure in the second pan is lower, allowing the steam made by the boiling in the first pan to boil the brine in the second pan. The pressure is reduced still further in each succeeding pan. This allows the steam made by the boiling brine in the previous pan to boil the brine in the next pan. While the boiling operation could be done with just one pan, several pans in a row produce more salt per pound of steam, thus allowing greater energy efficiency.

 

[mattrg_2000]

Interesting, from http://www.saltinstitute.org">www.saltinstitute.org</a>...

"Currently, the U.S. salt industry operates 48 salt production plants with [IMG]http://www.saltinstitute.org/images/map.pdf"><span style="color: #0000ff;">major production sites</span></a> in Louisiana, Ohio, New York, Kansas, Michigan, Utah, [IMG]http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/SS/dks1.html"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Texas</span></a> and California. All major U.S. salt producers are [IMG]http://www.saltinstitute.org/6.html"><span style="color: #0000ff;">members of the Salt Institute</span></a>. U.S. salt production is also tracked by the [IMG]http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/salt/stat/"><span style="color: #0000ff;">U.S. Geological Survey</span></a>. "

[IMG]http://www.saltinstitute.org/images/map.pdf">http://www.saltinstitute.org/images/map.pdf</a>

It said in 2006 that 23.1 million tons of salt sold in the US for 1,301.8 million dollars ($56.36 a ton). They list the following categories: Highway Salt 20.5 million tons ($26.52/ton), Human consumption salt 1.6 million tons ($152.83/ton), Water conditioning salt 3.7 million tons ($96.90/ton), Animal nutrition 1.6 million tons ($56.16/ton), Chemical salt 2.0 million tons ($29.13/ton).

If this is true, then the main raw material to the various aquarium distributors is $2.43 per 50 lb bucket. I wonder what they do to it before they package and sell to retailers?

- Matt

 

[mojo]

I don't want to stir anything up, and I didn't read all the posts, but do want to point out one thing:

Anyone that's been to Bonaire has seen the mountains of salt that they bulldoze around and onto ships. They have very large fields that are flooded from the ocean, and allow the sun to evaporate the water and leave the salt. I don't remember the numbers, but a non insignificant amount of the salt available in the world comes from there.

The practice was started a century or two ago, and still happens today (although mechanized). So.... it IS possible that companies can get their salt from this technique.

 

[mojo]

And here's a picture of those salt fields. The boxes are the fields for the saltwater, and they are cutoff, allowed to evaporate, then the salt bulldozed to the center and then to the famous Salt Pier.

Or http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=12.072056,-68.254967&spn=0.123213,0.159645&t=k&z=13&om=1">see it interactively</a> at Google Maps. If you zoom in enough, you can clearly see Salt Pier and the mounds of salt on either side of the conveyor out to it.
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