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Exactly my point. Well said.
Whats up with cap bay?
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Ok guys.. Not that I have any authority here, but you have made your point. If Cap Bay is not selling those frags because they are waiting to get them on line, that is their choice. If they are not selling them because they are trying to grow them out to propagate into more later, that is their choice. Do not look in those tanks, you know the goodies there are not for sale! 
It is like me going into the wedding show at the Hilton Hotel, I know those ones might look pretty but they are off the market. (Maybe they will be on the market again soon and in that case I already got them picked out to swoop in for the kill!)
Danny, we know you have great frags but lets not turn this into a pissing match between LFS.
It is like me going into the wedding show at the Hilton Hotel, I know those ones might look pretty but they are off the market. (Maybe they will be on the market again soon and in that case I already got them picked out to swoop in for the kill!)Danny, we know you have great frags but lets not turn this into a pissing match between LFS.
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I agree with ^^^. Let them run their business how they want to and QQ.
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Well well,
First off ..
I really don't see any criticism thats out of bounds on this thread.
When something doesn't go as planned ,as a customer its usually a great relief to vent the dis satisfaction out in the open.
I only wish I had the power to make this hobby fail proof..
Yes, this hobby is a constant battle with regards to unwanted pests.
Every time you add something new to your tank , you are placing the existing occupants at risk. Imagine placing a few hundred items into your tank each week. A fish store is a constant revolving door for marine life.
Add one new coral to a store display tank containing a few hundred pre existing corals and now every coral, even the ones which have been in the store for months technically needs to be re quarantined.
Then dare to say that something is not for sale .........
There are two ways of looking at the issue of unwanted pests and quarantine.
1.) you can take every possible precaution , like cooking your live rock until everything is dead and dipping your corals in iodine so strong that not even the dipped coral survives.
or keeping copper in your tank so that Ick cant dare survive.
But remember that going over board with sterilizing your tanks new additions also prevents any of the countless GOOD bugs and hitchhikers from seeding your tank.
2.) Or you can realize that this hobby is a vast complex food chain of Commensalism, parasitic ,commensal ,symbiotic and mutualism relationships. Even with the risk of the occasional bad unwanted tag along.... there are many more good things hiding in your rock and coral like pods and micro worms as there are the relatively few bad critters which find their way into our tanks.
You cant nuke the bad without harming the good.
Fish systems with heavy copper will rarely have Ick out breaks.
But also true is that heavy copper kills the beneficial bacterial and organisms inside a fishes digestive system. Ever noticed how especially Tangs just cant seem to gain weight no matter how much they eat? Its because inside a fishes digestive system is a vital ecosystem of micro organisms which help to digest its leafy food items. When these digestive organisms are harmed by copper treatments or others stressors, a fish cant digest its food,it doesn't matter how much it eats.
Having lots of the beneficial micro marine life yet eliminating every single speck of the unwanted pests is just not how balanced reef systems work.
There is always something hiding under the next frag......
But thats kinda what makes this hobby such a challenge. ..... and so rewarding when it goes just right
We at CBA will continue to strive to do better, but dont count on it being perfect every time. [Wink]
Jeff CBA
First off ..
I really don't see any criticism thats out of bounds on this thread.
When something doesn't go as planned ,as a customer its usually a great relief to vent the dis satisfaction out in the open.
I only wish I had the power to make this hobby fail proof..
Yes, this hobby is a constant battle with regards to unwanted pests.
Every time you add something new to your tank , you are placing the existing occupants at risk. Imagine placing a few hundred items into your tank each week. A fish store is a constant revolving door for marine life.
Add one new coral to a store display tank containing a few hundred pre existing corals and now every coral, even the ones which have been in the store for months technically needs to be re quarantined.
Then dare to say that something is not for sale .........
There are two ways of looking at the issue of unwanted pests and quarantine.
1.) you can take every possible precaution , like cooking your live rock until everything is dead and dipping your corals in iodine so strong that not even the dipped coral survives.
or keeping copper in your tank so that Ick cant dare survive.
But remember that going over board with sterilizing your tanks new additions also prevents any of the countless GOOD bugs and hitchhikers from seeding your tank.
2.) Or you can realize that this hobby is a vast complex food chain of Commensalism, parasitic ,commensal ,symbiotic and mutualism relationships. Even with the risk of the occasional bad unwanted tag along.... there are many more good things hiding in your rock and coral like pods and micro worms as there are the relatively few bad critters which find their way into our tanks.
You cant nuke the bad without harming the good.
Fish systems with heavy copper will rarely have Ick out breaks.
But also true is that heavy copper kills the beneficial bacterial and organisms inside a fishes digestive system. Ever noticed how especially Tangs just cant seem to gain weight no matter how much they eat? Its because inside a fishes digestive system is a vital ecosystem of micro organisms which help to digest its leafy food items. When these digestive organisms are harmed by copper treatments or others stressors, a fish cant digest its food,it doesn't matter how much it eats.
Having lots of the beneficial micro marine life yet eliminating every single speck of the unwanted pests is just not how balanced reef systems work.
There is always something hiding under the next frag......
But thats kinda what makes this hobby such a challenge. ..... and so rewarding when it goes just right
We at CBA will continue to strive to do better, but dont count on it being perfect every time. [Wink]
Jeff CBA
Hats off to this reply ....you know i work in a lfs but I also shop in your store an I will shop in your store as i allways have .I have never had a problem with anything I have got from cap.as you have said it is a gamble when you buy new stuff an it dont matter what store it come's from EVERY STORE has it's problem's .it's part of the game . but you just try as hard as you can to keep tanks an aniamls in the best health as you can ..an try to be as fair to the customers as possible ...but people have to understand it living things we are dealing with an things happen...thanks Danny
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With all the above two posts being said, Dip your corals and your fish... I doubt you will find anyone that can say that their tanks got flatworms or redbugs from liverock or Ich from the live rock for that matter. Yes you will kill a pod or bristly worm here or there with a good dip in iodine, but you will not be introducting the bad stuff from the LFS either. Even if your tank is not seeded (ummm let me think, maybe you started with dry sand and manmade LR) Go buy pods in a bottle if you are worried about not having any pods in your tank, don't rely on the system at your LFS for a pod hitch hiker to seed your tank.
If there is something hiding under your next frag, kill it!!!
Maybe the difference is I have not owned a LFS yet. (coming soon a to a mini-mall near you, mark my words!) But if it were me and my LFS, I would be dipping every coral that got shipped from the wholesaler and QTing every fish after a bit of a dip. It would not have the chance to bring anything into to my system because I would take care of it at the door. "The bug stops here" would be printed at my delivery door! Maybe it would cost a bit more, but I am sure it would be worth it in the end.
P.S. Mark these words too, the next three people coming on the boards saying, "I got a coral from <insert LFS or friend's name here> and it brought in some nasty stuff. What do I do?" I am going to laugh at and tell to hand over their skimmer till they learn how do read. Mark my words!
If there is something hiding under your next frag, kill it!!!
Maybe the difference is I have not owned a LFS yet. (coming soon a to a mini-mall near you, mark my words!) But if it were me and my LFS, I would be dipping every coral that got shipped from the wholesaler and QTing every fish after a bit of a dip. It would not have the chance to bring anything into to my system because I would take care of it at the door. "The bug stops here" would be printed at my delivery door! Maybe it would cost a bit more, but I am sure it would be worth it in the end.
P.S. Mark these words too, the next three people coming on the boards saying, "I got a coral from <insert LFS or friend's name here> and it brought in some nasty stuff. What do I do?" I am going to laugh at and tell to hand over their skimmer till they learn how do read. Mark my words!
Sheet happens, can't place too much blame on other people when it's a problem they can't always control. I bought fish from stores before that die the next day in my tank, but i just stfu and go on with life because i know the pet shop don't want it to happen either, and i bet they did what they could to keep their supply healthy.
<span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-size: 14px;">Kaldbreath</span>, your post is well informative and I agree with it. The only thing I see that could help is when you put a sign up saying the merchandise is not for sale, because of it being in quarantine, say so. If I walk up to a tank that says “QUARANTINED†I’m not even going to touch the tank let alone want to buy anything from it. I do enjoy visiting your store. </span></span>
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I know you're probably well respected on this board with your 1000 posts and all but these words really sound like they're coming from a n00b. I know as consumers we don't see all sides of this hobby but as with everything in life and what we buy, there's a right way, a wrong way, and a balanced way that's acceptable for both parties in the middle of the transaction.
The ocean isn't a clean system and if we choose to keep throwing things from the ocean into our tanks, we should probably expect it to be the same. For the same reasons why I didn't adopt 2 dogs and curse them daily for shedding in my house and ripping stuff apart, some of you guys who really think it's as easy as 1-2-3 need to just stop thinking and let the stores do their thing.
The level of complexity to set everything up and have the process go relatively smoothly is obviously something more complicated than most of us are willing to tackle so it's really pointless for the group to sit around and bash sponsors when in the end, we're probably not going to do anything about it.
As for the other comments I've been reading... Sh*t happens... sometimes there's tainted spinach and at other times there may be poisonous pet food... the distributors can't get it right 100% of the time.
As for what a store is willing or not willing to sell, I really would love to see a bunch of tweens sit around and ***** about how they can't buy cigarettes and beer. Seriously... I know we're net dependent... but there's this thing called the phone; which you are free to use before any long trips to see if the store you will be travelling to have anything in particular that you may want to buy. If you're really THAT worried about gas consumption, you can use it beforehand to find out if the trip would be worth it. Besides, I don't see how this is any different than Gamestop or KB Toys displaying the next Playstation, the next XBox or Halo 3 weeks before you can actually take it home. Why don't people ***** about that?
I thought we'd like to practice patience in this hobby. There's really is no need for a lil impatience to make you look like a whiny lil .....
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Ok, so I was going to stay out of it but anytime I am called an00b, I just can't let it rest. My experience has nothing to do with how many posts I have. If that were the case, then Cameron would be the smartest person here, and we know he is not, he is just a post whore, as I might well be.
With all that being said, I would counter your comments by said they are n00bish as well.
This get my n00b post of the week award! Yep even more so then the post about "is this algae?" You take the cake here, congrats. Ya somethere there is tainted spinach but it makes hundreds of people sick (or kills them) and yes there is tainted pet food that kills THOUSANDS of cats. All of which is preventable if the distributor would not cut corners and be held responsible for the products they distribute. I do not know how much you know about history but for all the bad things that the FDA does, the one good thing is foodborn illness is nothing like it was 100 years ago! The pet food industry is not nearly as regulated but I bet you, if this 100 million class action lawsuit goes through, it migh be. Now you take the marine import business, there are hardly any regulations. I hate to think that there is going to be a ban on importing corals within the next 5 years but if there is, I hope it brings some regulation for fish care and housing at the local fish store level.
I have visited LFS all over the world and the best one I have toured was in Phenoix. There tanks were as clean as I have ever seen, they QTed every fish for 3 weeks, they QTed every coral. I am sure they took a loss. The common thought among the LFS owners is, "We got to get this out the door because if it dies in our tank, we take the loss, if it dies in the customer's they do." It has been so ingrained in the hobbiest brains that "marine fish are so fragile that you are going to have loss no matter what." It is just not true, mishandled fish are fragile! Fish that are in the ocean one day and dumped from tank to tank for a week before they get to yours are fragile! Fish that have been give proper care are shown to have a higher survival rate and that can be started at the LFS level.
So, in closing, mu comment was, "But if it were me and my LFS, I would be dipping every coral that got shipped from the wholesaler and QTing every fish after a bit of a dip. It would not have the chance to bring anything into to my system because I would take care of it at the door. "The bug stops here" would be printed at my delivery door! Maybe it would cost a bit more, but I am sure it would be worth it in the end." </em>and I stand behind that comment 100%. I do not think it is idolistic at all, just good damage control for my business, good care for my customers, and good ethics for the fish that are intrusted to my care.
With all that being said, I would counter your comments by said they are n00bish as well.
You are right, the ocean is not clean but the ocean is a BIG body of water with LOTS of different animals in it, each serve it purpose. Your tank is a small body of water without the same diversity of life. can you fit everything in your tank to create a complete ecosystem? I bet not! As such you need to limit what you allow into your system, less you create an gross imbalance. As for your dog example, it is just plain silly. You SHOULD choose the breed of dog for the temperment you are looking for. If you do not want your dog to shead, do not get a dog that sheads, if you do not want him to chew, do not let him do so. The day you figure out how to train a flatworm not to eat your corals, let me know!
This get my n00b post of the week award! Yep even more so then the post about "is this algae?" You take the cake here, congrats. Ya somethere there is tainted spinach but it makes hundreds of people sick (or kills them) and yes there is tainted pet food that kills THOUSANDS of cats. All of which is preventable if the distributor would not cut corners and be held responsible for the products they distribute. I do not know how much you know about history but for all the bad things that the FDA does, the one good thing is foodborn illness is nothing like it was 100 years ago! The pet food industry is not nearly as regulated but I bet you, if this 100 million class action lawsuit goes through, it migh be. Now you take the marine import business, there are hardly any regulations. I hate to think that there is going to be a ban on importing corals within the next 5 years but if there is, I hope it brings some regulation for fish care and housing at the local fish store level.
I have visited LFS all over the world and the best one I have toured was in Phenoix. There tanks were as clean as I have ever seen, they QTed every fish for 3 weeks, they QTed every coral. I am sure they took a loss. The common thought among the LFS owners is, "We got to get this out the door because if it dies in our tank, we take the loss, if it dies in the customer's they do." It has been so ingrained in the hobbiest brains that "marine fish are so fragile that you are going to have loss no matter what." It is just not true, mishandled fish are fragile! Fish that are in the ocean one day and dumped from tank to tank for a week before they get to yours are fragile! Fish that have been give proper care are shown to have a higher survival rate and that can be started at the LFS level.
So, in closing, mu comment was, "But if it were me and my LFS, I would be dipping every coral that got shipped from the wholesaler and QTing every fish after a bit of a dip. It would not have the chance to bring anything into to my system because I would take care of it at the door. "The bug stops here" would be printed at my delivery door! Maybe it would cost a bit more, but I am sure it would be worth it in the end." </em>and I stand behind that comment 100%. I do not think it is idolistic at all, just good damage control for my business, good care for my customers, and good ethics for the fish that are intrusted to my care.
I guess I started something, too all of you that told me I needed to qt all live stock that is a great idea but this is a new tank and I was trying to get my pod population going. I live a good distance from the store and went there due to there great live stock and its lack of pests in the past. If the store is taking in live stock from any one that has a walmart tank and some IO salt dont you think you should qt it for your customers, if not to protect your own live stock? And as for this-
"As for the other comments I've been reading... Sh*t happens... sometimes there's tainted spinach and at other times there may be poisonous pet food... the distributors can't get it right 100% of the time. "
Thats assine we are the ones paying so they have there doors open and are we not able to say that the product was not to the standard it sould be? If you think that a company or shop can be slack on there standards and thats ok, not me. There are alot of other places I can spend my money.
"As for the other comments I've been reading... Sh*t happens... sometimes there's tainted spinach and at other times there may be poisonous pet food... the distributors can't get it right 100% of the time. "
Thats assine we are the ones paying so they have there doors open and are we not able to say that the product was not to the standard it sould be? If you think that a company or shop can be slack on there standards and thats ok, not me. There are alot of other places I can spend my money.
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What's a flatworm? *looks in his tank*..... oh nevermind........... time to move on.
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Personally Brandon, I think you're coming across as "holier than thou" which I know is not your intention but it just rubs some people the wrong way...
Anyways, I think Kappa's point is pretty good even though it could of been articulated a little more sensitively. To me he's essentially sending the message be a big boy and "deal with it." As consumers it would be ideal if all the LFS did all the QT for you and kept their systems pristine... but realistically they don't and personally I don't even expect them to. Maybe there's a market for that, but its all about the risk/reward ratio which dictates what we see contemporaneously. So lets collectively stop whining, accept reality and take the steps to protect ourselves when introducing new goodies from them. I don't think you should blaming a LFS when it's your own fault if you let something loose in your system, noone forced you to throw that piece of algae or pretty lil frag in your tank without careful examination and QT. Deal with it!
Anyways, I think Kappa's point is pretty good even though it could of been articulated a little more sensitively. To me he's essentially sending the message be a big boy and "deal with it." As consumers it would be ideal if all the LFS did all the QT for you and kept their systems pristine... but realistically they don't and personally I don't even expect them to. Maybe there's a market for that, but its all about the risk/reward ratio which dictates what we see contemporaneously. So lets collectively stop whining, accept reality and take the steps to protect ourselves when introducing new goodies from them. I don't think you should blaming a LFS when it's your own fault if you let something loose in your system, noone forced you to throw that piece of algae or pretty lil frag in your tank without careful examination and QT. Deal with it!
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After reading what I wrote I kinda sound like an ***... not my intention either .
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You are right, I do not mean to come across holier then thou... I am sick, the drugs are good and I have no internal voice of reason right now. (BTW, I blame the LFS for what ever bug I got!)
My whole point all along has been that if a LFS knows of a problem, then they SHOULD tell the customer so they can protect themselves. Sometimes putting your customers ahead of a sale is the best thing you can do in business. I am not going to say that Cap Bay knew they had a flat worm problem before they sold the macro to Kzoo but IF they did, it is pretty bad business and I would be upset too. I only gave Posiden's props because they took steps that I think all LFS could learn something from. They knew there was a problem and made sure they let people buying things know too. I still give them props for that!
I then went on to say that if I ran a LFS in a perfect world, I would dip anything that came through the door in response to Cap Bay taking in something from an outside tank that gave them flat worms in the first place.
You are right, the bottom line is, LEARN TO QT AND PROTECT YOUR TANK OR QUIT WHINNING WHEN SOMETHING BAD HAPPENDS TO YOU!!! Every author that you should have read on the subject has told you, take precausions and mast people don't.
My whole point all along has been that if a LFS knows of a problem, then they SHOULD tell the customer so they can protect themselves. Sometimes putting your customers ahead of a sale is the best thing you can do in business. I am not going to say that Cap Bay knew they had a flat worm problem before they sold the macro to Kzoo but IF they did, it is pretty bad business and I would be upset too. I only gave Posiden's props because they took steps that I think all LFS could learn something from. They knew there was a problem and made sure they let people buying things know too. I still give them props for that!
I then went on to say that if I ran a LFS in a perfect world, I would dip anything that came through the door in response to Cap Bay taking in something from an outside tank that gave them flat worms in the first place.
You are right, the bottom line is, LEARN TO QT AND PROTECT YOUR TANK OR QUIT WHINNING WHEN SOMETHING BAD HAPPENDS TO YOU!!! Every author that you should have read on the subject has told you, take precausions and mast people don't.
This is just bad timing for Cap Bay IMO. Following on the heels of the clam problem and website launch/sales issue doesn't tend to help ones rep around here as we are a pretty finicky bunch of shoppers. The clam conversation got out of hand pretty quick for reasons I still don't quite understand and flat worms/ick are pretty much a problem for every LFS at some point or another. I will give CapBay a pass on both.
IMO the real issue isn't communication on the important problems but lack of communication as a whole. They don't really post on these forums like practically every other LFS in the area which recently has caused me to take virtually all my business to other places that do (Fishy, PetLand Alph, etc). They are beginning to focus on the internet business side of things which will hopefully bring some of their pricing in line with other online vendors and bring them to some forums. Drs Foster and Smith regularly post on their reefcentral forums and respond to emails promptly, hopefully we can get a similar benefit from Cap Bay at some point.
Personally, I wouldn't get to upset over this or the clam issue as it is all just part of the process. Course I didn't get flatworms or a tank wide clam wipe out either so I don't have that perspective.
IMO the real issue isn't communication on the important problems but lack of communication as a whole. They don't really post on these forums like practically every other LFS in the area which recently has caused me to take virtually all my business to other places that do (Fishy, PetLand Alph, etc). They are beginning to focus on the internet business side of things which will hopefully bring some of their pricing in line with other online vendors and bring them to some forums. Drs Foster and Smith regularly post on their reefcentral forums and respond to emails promptly, hopefully we can get a similar benefit from Cap Bay at some point.
Personally, I wouldn't get to upset over this or the clam issue as it is all just part of the process. Course I didn't get flatworms or a tank wide clam wipe out either so I don't have that perspective.
