WP40 Died

[pbyrmartin]

in 2009 I was thinking about buying a set of mp40's but I didnt
I personally think they are over price
I see now that they are coming down on there prices
Maybe Jebao and Aqua medic might drive the price down even further.

 

[skriz]

rdnelson99;1009990 wrote: Again I can't speak for him but for me I would answer with a question. How many replacements could I buy before I equal the cost of one Ecotech?...

This is important to consider. Not only the cost of the replacement, but the consequential costs (your time, hassle involved, etc.). At a certain point, it's no longer "cheap" and no longer a value. But when do you reach that point? Or when does Soxx reach that point? Or is it even a consideration?

I know I make that assessment before buying something. I also put a heavy consideration into the maintenance aspect (how much maintenance is required) and customer service (is there any and how is it).

I do buy items knowing that they'll likely not last very long, but I don't need them to in those cases. Some things are worth the expense, some aren't (to me). I'm curious how other people approach it and what items where they feel quality is more critical. For instance, I've found spending $$ on a really nice magnet cleaner is worth it. It takes me much longer to clean my tank with a cheaper one (and the cheaper one requires more frequent maintenance) than it does with my nice one. But, I did have to buy a lot of magnets to get to that point! So many that I used one for an algae clip, a few for key holders in various places, & a couple that hold a big advent calender to the door that leads to the garage (during christmas)!

 

[grouper therapy]

Skriz;1010009 wrote: This is important to consider. Not only the cost of the replacement, but the consequential costs (your time, hassle involved, etc.). At a certain point, it's no longer "cheap" and no longer a value. But when do you reach that point? Or when does Soxx reach that point? Or is it even a consideration?

I know I make that assessment before buying something. I also put a heavy consideration into the maintenance aspect (how much maintenance is required) and customer service (is there any and how is it).
I do buy items knowing that they'll likely not last very long, but I don't need them to in those cases. Some things are worth the expense, some aren't (to me). I'm curious how other people approach it and what items where they feel quality is more critical. For instance, I've found spending $$ on a really nice magnet cleaner is worth it. It takes me much longer to clean my tank with a cheaper one (and the cheaper one requires more frequent maintenance) than it does with my nice one. But, I did have to buy a lot of magnets to get to that point! So many that I used one for an algae clip, a few for key holders in various places, & a couple that hold a big advent calender to the door that leads to the garage (during christmas)!

We could take that one step further, If that is a major consideration why not go with a maintenance company?
My point is that level is different between individuals, probably due to other circumstances in their lives. Some may even enjoy maintaining their equipment.

 

[skriz]

grouper therapy;1010014 wrote: We could take that one step further, If that is a major consideration why not go with a maintenance company?
My point is that level is different between individuals, probably due to other circumstances in their lives. Some may even enjoy maintaining their equipment.

I'm not arguing the merits either way. I'm asking to see how other people think; how they approach and assess their purchases, etc.

So, yes, if you enjoy maintaining powerheads, that's great. I've never met such a person!
If spending x amount on replacement pumps every Y months is better financially or more your style rather than saving for a more expensive pump, cool.
Whatever it is, I'm not judging; I'm legitimately curious. Like I said, I make those assessments in my head before buying stuff and make my buying choice accordingly.

Comparing hiring a lawn service to brand of lawnmower is comparing apples and monkeys..they're not a parallel comparison.

 

[soxx]

Wow! Didn't know that saying "I believe in something" could be so questioned. rdnelson99 ,you certainly have my permission to speak for me because we share the same views when it comes to the Jebao WP-40 that failed with me. My pockets are not deep...I look at times for affordable alternatives to some of our hobbies accessories. This WP-40 by Jebao fit my needs and budget perfectly. I cannot justify spending around $300.00 for a Vortech(although, I'd like to have one). You say, well after 3 or 4 of the Jebao pumps fail, you 'll will have spent that much. I ''ll take that chance. If this one fails, I can always go back to my Koralias. For now, I love the controllability and flow of the powerheads. I've also got a Jebao WP-10 on my 60 cube. Had it for over a year and it is still going strong. This is not the first product in the Aquarium industry that has flaws or has failed. So, why do "I believe?" Because it's affordable and has great water movement alternatives for my 90. I choose not to give up on anything just because one bad thing happened. Thanks again rdnelson99 for your thoughtful support.

 

[grouper therapy]

Skriz;1010020 wrote: I'm not arguing the merits either way. I'm asking to see how other people think; how they approach and assess their purchases, etc.

So, yes, if you enjoy maintaining powerheads, that's great. I've never met such a person!
If spending x amount on replacement pumps every Y months is better financially or more your style rather than saving for a more expensive pump, cool.
Whatever it is, I'm not judging; I'm legitimately curious. Like I said, I make those assessments in my head before buying stuff and make my buying choice accordingly.

Maybe I should have said (do not mind performing maintenance).
Comparing hiring a lawn service to brand of lawnmower is comparing apples and monkeys..they're not a parallel comparison.

If you do decide to cut your own grass then which lawnmower would be considered. The Murray with the Briggs and Stratton that will need plugs+ the carb cleaned twice a season and still only last 3-4 years or the Honda that will only need it once a year and will last 10+ years. Murray $125 Honda $600 . Sure there is ,a lawnmower(powerhead) is involved. If the maintenance of the lawnmower is more than you want to deal with or have the time to deal with then perhaps a lawn service is better suited for you.
Same thing as you were asking above. Consequential costs? No? That factor weighs out differently for each individual wouldn't you think.

 

[grouper therapy]

I'm not sure I understand the difference in someone replacing the whole cheaper pump or replacing the wet side of the more expensive pump? Do the expensive pumps never need cleaning? Just curious. If there is no difference then what would you assess? The price?

 

[rdnelson]

Skriz;1010009 wrote: This is important to consider. Not only the cost of the replacement, but the consequential costs (your time, hassle involved, etc.). At a certain point, it's no longer "cheap" and no longer a value. But when do you reach that point? Or when does Soxx reach that point? Or is it even a consideration?



I know I make that assessment before buying something. I also put a heavy consideration into the maintenance aspect (how much maintenance is required) and customer service (is there any and how is it).



I do buy items knowing that they'll likely not last very long, but I don't need them to in those cases. Some things are worth the expense, some aren't (to me). I'm curious how other people approach it and what items where they feel quality is more critical. For instance, I've found spending $$ on a really nice magnet cleaner is worth it. It takes me much longer to clean my tank with a cheaper one (and the cheaper one requires more frequent maintenance) than it does with my nice one. But, I did have to buy a lot of magnets to get to that point! So many that I used one for an algae clip, a few for key holders in various places, & a couple that hold a big advent calender to the door that leads to the garage (during christmas)!

Your points are all good points but, as you and I have discussed before, it comes down to can you afford to take part in an expensive hobby. If my only choice is to buy everything new and top of the line the answer is no I can't afford it.

On the other hand, instead of paying a small fortune to have Dave build me a stand that is worth every penny, I can spend several months butchering up some lumber and come out with a stand that I think looks great. It would never compare in quality or craftsmanship to what Dave produces but it allows me to have a nice tank and enjoy a hobby I may have otherwise been unable to afford. It also allows me to say "I designed that and I built that". To some they couldn't care less. To me, that is as important as a gorgeous tank.

But I can't build my own PWs so I spend the least amount I can and still get functionality for a reasonable amount of time. By the time it fails, I may have been able to replenish my budget enough to afford another one.

 

[rdnelson]

Let's look at this same debate in a little different light. My guess is that if people are honest, the results would really surprise you.

Let's consider ONLY those people willing to spend $300 + for EACH power head. The arguments have all been stated. Better quality, function better and last longer. Gotcha. Now! How many of those same people have spent the money to have a qualified electrician install GFCI protection. You could hire almost any Electrical Contractor and pay $150 or less to have this done. Why? Because it would help to ensure that your livestock is protected incase of an electrical short? Sure, good reason. But what about protecting YOU from possible death due to electrocution???

My guess is $150 is too much for most people to pay for GFCI protection but have no problem paying $300 EACH for two or more power heads. Seems priorities may not be in line.

 

[tonymission]

rdnelson99;1010082 wrote: Let's look at this same debate in a little different light. My guess is that if people are honest, the results would really surprise you.

Let's consider ONLY those people willing to spend $300 + for EACH power head. The arguments have all been stated. Better quality, function better and last longer. Gotcha. Now! How many of those same people have spent the money to have a qualified electrician install GFCI protection. You could hire almost any Electrical Contractor and pay $150 or less to have this done. Why? Because it would help to ensure that your livestock is protected incase of an electrical short? Sure, good reason. But what about protecting YOU from possible death due to electrocution???

My guess is $150 is too much for most people to pay for GFCI protection but have no problem paying $300 EACH for two or more power heads. Seems priorities may not be in line.

That's a bit of a leap isn't it?
Can't tell you how many times I've had my electrician buddy out here. The segment ok buying a bunch of vortechs typically isn't taking shortcuts elsewhere unless it's something they just didn't consider.

You say you wouldn't spend $300 on a power head, but it seems accepted that buying $300 worth of power heads is affordable as long as it's stretched out over a longer period of time? I don't really understand the price difference part of it if you have to replace them often. Doesn't that cancel out that advantage and just make cost of entry more of a differentiator?

I have 9 different vortechs and have only replaced one wetside. One that i bought used and previous owner bought used.

Personally I'm glad that people are excited about, and have embraced, jabeos because it has motivated the industry to innovate and lower prices. Better for everyone.

 

[grouper therapy]

tonymission;1010098 wrote: That's a bit of a leap isn't it?
Can't tell you how many times I've had my electrician buddy out here. The segment ok buying a bunch of vortechs typically isn't taking shortcuts elsewhere unless it's something they just didn't consider.

You say you wouldn't spend $300 on a power head, but it seems accepted that buying $300 worth of power heads is affordable as long as it's stretched out over a longer period of time? I don't really understand the price difference part of it if you have to replace them often. Doesn't that cancel out that advantage and just make cost of entry more of a differentiator?

I have 9 different vortechs and have only replaced one wetside. One that i bought used and previous owner bought used.

Personally I'm glad that people are excited about, and have embraced, jabeos because it has motivated the industry to innovate and lower prices. Better for everyone.

Not everyone has one of those.

So far as replacing the cheaper units often I would like to see how many were purchased and how many are still running. I think we put to mush confidence in what is posted on the forums in regards both price points. I'll assure you not near as many people with either will post because they are still running.

 

[skriz]

rdnelson99;1010082 wrote: Let's look at this same debate in a little different light. My guess is that if people are honest, the results would really surprise you.

Let's consider ONLY those people willing to spend $300 + for EACH power head. The arguments have all been stated. Better quality, function better and last longer. Gotcha. Now! How many of those same people have spent the money to have a qualified electrician install GFCI protection. You could hire almost any Electrical Contractor and pay $150 or less to have this done. Why? Because it would help to ensure that your livestock is protected incase of an electrical short? Sure, good reason. But what about protecting YOU from possible death due to electrocution???

My guess is $150 is too much for most people to pay for GFCI protection but have no problem paying $300 EACH for two or more power heads. Seems priorities may not be in line.

I had electricians run all my wiring and outlets, but I do hang my own ceiling fans!

 

[skriz]

Acandoit;1010033 wrote: As an owner of 4 WP40's, 2 RW20's, and a WP10, I would say my purchase was primarily driven by my initial perception of cost of the PH's versus amount of water moved. Since I am going on 2 years on my initial WP40 purchase, cleaning them maybe 3 times over that time and no deaths, I would say my experience has been essentially positive.

If the MP's cost the same as the WP's, believe me, I would buy them in a heartbeat as there are several points that make them more attractive to me, (the main one having the power cord out of the water!).

Until that time comes, and I still haven't been burned by a perceived Chinese knock-off, I will likely continue using Jebao power heads.

Thank you!

 

[skriz]

rdnelson99;1010058 wrote: Your points are all good points but, as you and I have discussed before, it comes down to can you afford to take part in an expensive hobby. If my only choice is to buy everything new and top of the line the answer is no I can't afford it.

On the other hand, instead of paying a small fortune to have Dave build me a stand that is worth every penny, I can spend several months butchering up some lumber and come out with a stand that I think looks great. It would never compare in quality or craftsmanship to what Dave produces but it allows me to have a nice tank and enjoy a hobby I may have otherwise been unable to afford. It also allows me to say "I designed that and I built that". To some they couldn't care less. To me, that is as important as a gorgeous tank.

I've done both: built my own and had Dave build. The latter was so far superior to what I could do it's not even funny..not even remotely.

I'm also the type that if I "make do" for now with the intention of working towards getting it done right, I end up 10 years down the road stuck with my make shift x! So, for me, it's all or nothing..if I don't have it, I can keep myself motivated to get it. I hate that it has to be like that, but that's just how I operate..can't fight it!

rdnelson99;1010058 wrote: But I can't build my own PWs so I spend the least amount I can and still get functionality for a reasonable amount of time. By the time it fails, I may have been able to replenish my budget enough to afford another one.

I've found that it always ends up costing me more in the long run doing it this way. I'm better off saving and waiting..as much as it pains me to wait! But, I understand the dilemma for sure.

 

[rdnelson]

Skriz;1010126 wrote: I had electricians run all my wiring and outlets, but I do hang my own ceiling fans!

Does that include your business? ;-)

 

[rdnelson]

tonymission;1010098 wrote: That's a bit of a leap isn't it?
Can't tell you how many times I've had my electrician buddy out here. The segment ok buying a bunch of vortechs typically isn't taking shortcuts elsewhere unless it's something they just didn't consider.

You say you wouldn't spend $300 on a power head, but it seems accepted that buying $300 worth of power heads is affordable as long as it's stretched out over a longer period of time? I don't really understand the price difference part of it if you have to replace them often. Doesn't that cancel out that advantage and just make cost of entry more of a differentiator?

I have 9 different vortechs and have only replaced one wetside. One that i bought used and previous owner bought used.

Personally I'm glad that people are excited about, and have embraced, jabeos because it has motivated the industry to innovate and lower prices. Better for everyone.

That is why I said "My guess is". As for spending the same amount but spreading it out over time that is actually part of my point. Those with a tight Reefing budget may find it difficult to drop $300 for a powerhead at any given time. Sure they could save up for it over time along with the radio s, the MRC calcium reactor, the custom stand, the star fire aquarium. Might take them a couple three years to round all that up. Or, they can enjoy a tank for that three years by investing in more affordable equipment allowing them to get started sooner.

 

[rdnelson]

If you don't mind indulging me a bit further, let me illustrate my point a little better. I know someone who happens to own a couple of businesses. This individual appears to have expendable cash to spend in this hobby. He can purchase the best equipment for his system and does so (in fact one of his business manufactures some of the best). He weighs the long term costs against the benefits he will receive and determines that paying $300 for a power head outweighs paying less than a $100 for a cheap knock off. In return, he gets piece of mind that it is quality equipment and that the manufacture will be there should he need to use the warranty.


This same person, buys a new piece of equipment for one of his businesses. He bought it because it will increase production, produce better quality and maybe because it will keep his employees safer. But he needs to hook it up. I requires an 80 amp 3 phase electrical feed at 208 volts to operate properly. His first instinct is “I can do this myself. All I need to do is ask an electrician friend a few questions”. Or he may hire that electrician friend to do it on the side. Saves his business a bunch of money and everyone is happy. Is there a warranty? No. Is he certain it is done correctly? No. Is he confident that it will not endanger his employees and/or equipment? Maybe but my guess is no.


So how does he get those things? Well, he could pay 3 or 4 times as much to hire an electrical contracting company to come in and install it. If that company is committed to doing things right they would know that the first thing they need to do is buy a permit. This will mean that an inspector will come and check to make sure they did it properly, safely and it meets the requirements of the National Electrical Code. They will know that it needs to be #4 phase conductors with a #8 ground wire. They will know that if they are using wire that has THHN/THWN insulation they will need to run it in 1” conduit assuming that conduit is EMT. They will know that if the equipment does not have an acceptable internal means of disconnect and the equipment is not within 50 feet and line of sight of the panel they will need to install a local means of disconnect. They will know that if the equipment is subject to vibration they will have to make the final conduit connection with flexible conduit. They know that if there are liquids present that they need to make sure the flexible conduit is liquidtight. They know that if any point of the conduit run is subject to higher than 90 degrees Celsius ambient temperature they may need to use a different insulation type and/or increase the wire and conduit sizes. Does he now have a warranty? Yes. Is he certain it is done correctly? Yes. Is he confident that it will not endanger his employees and/or equipment? Should be.


Hope that helps (on many levels, LOL)