Chinese knockoffs

[grouper therapy]

You tell me the difference . Information ,knowledge and Jobs were illegally stolen on both accounts by both foreign workforces. It impacts the US companies negatively, financially speaking on both accounts. Driving down the profitability on both accounts, offering an inferior product at reduced prices. Now one scenario may have legal patent attached but theft is theft by principle.

Edit: I don't expect you to see it from my viewpoint as it did not impact you directly as it did me but it still happened and you contributed to it if you purchased a product of either scenario. Stone cold fact. So you being OK with it is a positive.
I am serious show me the difference from a a viewpoint of principle. I am more than willing to adjust my thinking on the subject if you can do that.

 

[frantz]

I think you two agree. I don't think anyone is trying to take away from the construction industry in this dialog. As I suggested before, I'd be willing to bet that most houses are purchased in ignorance of labor provided or at the very least, a compromise between moral convictions and the wallet! I'll be ready for the smack down though, I hope Jenn found some extra folding chairs! Has anyone here ever watched amateur WWF (WCW WWE or whatever)? Worst experience ever! Even worse than army administrative briefs!!!
Poor OP had no idea =-D

 

[grouper therapy]

Frantz;772909 wrote: I think you two agree. I don't think anyone is trying to take away from the construction industry in this dialog. As I suggested before, I'd be willing to bet that most houses are purchased in ignorance of labor provided or at the very least, a compromise between moral convictions and the wallet! I'll be ready for the smack down though, I hope Jenn found some extra folding chairs! Has anyone here ever watched amateur WWF (WCW WWE or whatever)? Worst experience ever! Even worse than army administrative briefs!!!
Poor OP had no idea =-D

I'd say the same for cheaper pumps

 

[cjsparky]

grouper therapy;772841 wrote: Was it of inferior quality? Just saying. I should have said citizens of a foreign country.My Bad. I actually have a neutral view of both points foreign trade or illegal work forces. I choose to limit my hypocrisy on the subjects which was the point I was stabbing at. I actually find such hypocrisy fascinating. All the silly opinions laid aside ,I agree with Barry those who want the best will continue to buy the vortech and those who don't will try the spin offs.

Totally see your point, and in fact I have no problem with immigrant workers working hard to better their life. My house was mostly built by these people and I admire them. That being said, I DO NOT admire people who take a product that is protected by copyright, patent laws, etc. and reverse engineer it, build it in working conditions that are not an even playing field, and then be allowed to ship it back to this country for profit. My hypocracy....I was in NYC once and bought a 35 dollar Tag...guilty as charged ;-p

Edit:

tobyte1;772845 wrote: Like it or not, that's the world we live in. Odds are, the computer that you are typing on or the smart phone that you are using were made in China.....

A product being made in china does not equal a product design being stolen, made in china, and then shipped back to be sold here...

Edit:

Skriz;772850 wrote: The crux of the issue is not who built it, but that the design was stolen. No different than building said house or structure with stolen materials. Celebrating that is disgusting.

Ugh...I am always a day late and a dollar short...but yes...this.

 

[rdnelson]

Cjsparky;772940 wrote: Totally see your point, and in fact I have no problem with immigrant workers working hard to better their life. My house was mostly built by these people and I admire them. That being said, I DO NOT admire people who take a product that is protected by copyright, patent laws, etc. and reverse engineer it, build it in working conditions that are not an even playing field, and then be allowed to ship it back to this country for profit. My hypocracy....I was in NYC once and bought a 35 dollar Tag...guilty as charged ;-p

Like you, I admire someone who does whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their family. But, you are missing one very BIG part of the equation. If I were to compete against most of the sub-contractors in the housing market I would go broke in a hurry. Why? Because I would be obligated to pay the taxes, FICA, unemployment, builders risk insurance, licensing fees, medical insurance, etc. to do so legally. When non-documented workers are used, none of these fees are required and therefore it can be done cheaper causing me to not get the job. Isn't that theft? It is not only removing my income it is also removing a large portion of the "Revenue" that our administration says needs to be increased. Therefore, they come to the legal businesses and want more.

Having said all of that, I admit I am a hypocrite on these issues. I would put money down in Vegas that there was at least one un-documented worker who contributed to the building of my home. I also have Chinese LED fixtures hanging over my tank.

For those of you who have enough expendable income to pay 3 or 4 times more for pretty much the same product because it is built in America I applaud you. But I would ask you not to belittle those who may not have the financial status that you enjoy. Because I don't have a large reserve of cash am I supposed to give up all good things in life? Or should I not take advantage of items that do fit my budget? That is a question that most people in this hobby deal with each and every time they make a purchase.

Am I a hypocrite. You bet I am. But I am also a realist.

 

[ripped tide]

Aren't vortechs made in china?

 

[sewer urchin]

Save it for Saturday Night RAW!

Located at Imagine Ocean!

looks like jbadd might just get a chance to stop by anyways and grab some dawgs, I mean dogs

 

[grouper therapy]

I admire anybody regardless of their nationality that works hard to provide for their family.
I have as friends and worship with some who were part of that work force that are legal now. One can rationalize all day long on the reasons why they feel that the two scenarios are different and why one applies and one doesn't especially if the pointing finger does a 180.
But indisputable facts remain. 1. intellectual property, whether protected by patent laws or not, was exploited by both groups. 2. Laws were either broken or circumvented by both groups. 3. Domestic business were negatively impacted from the actions of both groups. 4.Anyone purchasing a product produced by either group is an accessory to their action.
Disputable feelings or opinions 1. Some feel that they are justified in pointing the finger at another for supporting one group while they support the other . 2. Some view that as hypocrisy.
IT is OK if they don't agree. I don't know Dawgface but I'm sure he is a hardworking motivated individual and I don't think he is a hypocritical individual in all aspects of his life. I just felt that his view/response of the op's statement was and since views or opinions were being expressed I inserted mine.

 

[cjsparky]

rdnelson99;772946 wrote: Like you, I admire someone who does whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their family. But, you are missing one very BIG part of the equation. If I were to compete against most of the sub-contractors in the housing market I would go broke in a hurry. Why? Because I would be obligated to pay the taxes, FICA, unemployment, builders risk insurance, licensing fees, medical insurance, etc. to do so legally. When non-documented workers are used, none of these fees are required and therefore it can be done cheaper causing me to not get the job. Isn't that theft? It is not only removing my income it is also removing a large portion of the "Revenue" that our administration says needs to be increased. Therefore, they come to the legal businesses and want more.

Having said all of that, I admit I am a hypocrite on these issues. I would put money down in Vegas that there was at least one un-documented worker who contributed to the building of my home. I also have Chinese LED fixtures hanging over my tank.

For those of you who have enough expendable income to pay 3 or 4 times more for pretty much the same product because it is built in America I applaud you. But I would ask you not to belittle those who may not have the financial status that you enjoy. Because I don't have a large reserve of cash am I supposed to give up all good things in life? Or should I not take advantage of items that do fit my budget? That is a question that most people in this hobby deal with each and every time they make a purchase.

Am I a hypocrite. You bet I am. But I am also a realist.

I think you and me are more aligned on this than my first post may have read. There is simply no good answer to a lot of the points you raise. I think if we can slice it into circumstances it is easier to draw a concrete opinion on that circumstance...and depending on the circumstance, one may even contradict themselves...

Edit:

grouper therapy;772955 wrote: I admire anybody regardless of their nationality that works hard to provide for their family.

:thumbs:

 

[rdnelson]

Cjsparky;772956 wrote: I think you and me are more aligned on this than my first post may have read. There is simply no good answer to a lot of the points you raise. I think if we can slice it into circumstances it is easier to draw a concrete opinion on that circumstance...and depending on the circumstance, one may even contradict themselves...

Edit:

:thumbs:

That is it in a nut shell. I would venture to say that there is not one of us who is taking part in this conversation who hasn't contributed to the problem at one point or another. Given the chance and all things being equal, I will support local before national and national before foreign. But, at the same time, I am going to be as frugal as I can be. That is life and I can accept it.

 

[cjsparky]

Dine;772872 wrote: listen at the end of this. if the pumps are identical replicas of a patented design then we will agree, and this could be the case (i certaintly wouldnt put it past a chinese company) however there are plenty of legitimate chinese based companies that produce quality products using cheaper labor and parts. may or may not be as good as the vortech line but thats for the individuals to decide.

Agreed...

 

[jef4y]

I'm glad this thread got to where it is before I saw it and spent hours banging my head on the keyboard.

Skriz & DawgFace hit the nail on the head IMHO.

 

[skriz]

rdnelson99;772946 wrote: ..For those of you who have enough expendable income to pay 3 or 4 times more for pretty much the same product because it is built in America I applaud you. But I would ask you not to belittle those who may not have the financial status that you enjoy. Because I don't have a large reserve of cash am I supposed to give up all good things in life? Or should I not take advantage of items that do fit my budget? That is a question that most people in this hobby deal with each and every time they make a purchase.

Am I a hypocrite. You bet I am. But I am also a realist.

A hobby, especially this one, is a luxury. Luxury being something that isn't a necessity.

What you are saying is that since you can't afford a luxury item, you feel it is perfectly justifiable to steal it. I know you're paying for it, but you're paying a company who is stealing it. I don't find that acceptable.

Grouper is arguing along the same vein, I believe. Using undocumented labor in the construction industry is another form of stealing and something absolutely should be done about it. When I was shopping for my home, I was shopping based on the features I wanted in the area I wanted and I was willing to pay for it. And, I would've paid more for my house..happily.

 

[jef4y]

rdnelson99;772958 wrote: That is it in a nut shell. I would venture to say that there is not one of us who is taking part in this conversation who hasn't contributed to the problem at one point or another. Given the chance and all things being equal, I will support local before national and national before foreign. But, at the same time, I am going to be as frugal as I can be. That is life and I can accept it.

Rich, I don't know that the question is about frugality, but honesty. Basically which of these 3 options would you choose?

A) Buy Photoshop from Adobe for $699
B) Buy a bootleg copy off Craigslist for $99
C) Find a comparable product at a price you can afford

For me, B is never a solution/answer. It's either A or C. What is happening all too often though is people buying "legitimate but stolen" imports from abroad which to me falls under "B".

While like you, I try to buy local & nationally first, I don't generally have a problem buying a comparable item made abroad if it will meet my needs. However, I wouldn't buy an absolute rip-off of a patented/copyrighted piece of work regardless of how much I wanted it or I could save.

 

[falos]

I thank a major thing being forgotten is China is #1 on coppieright and patent infringment why would someone spend the time resources to develop a product like the vortech pump and not benafit from it this is the reason that there is a patent process it is there to protect inventers from larger corparations stealing there hard work. How can someone justafy cheating or stealing eny eny form unless there life was dependt of it (a starving person for instance a non monatary gain senarieo actuwal life death )
But before the bashers start for my coment let me give a few examples of Chinese patent infrindgement minicopper mercadies Audi Lexus Bentley ford dodge and gm have all tried to sue China for copying there cars down to the decal just for the Chinese court system to say we don't know what your talking about
As far as imagrets and labor force it has its pros and cons but who am I to judge my valley didn't git here til the late 40's and last I checked unless you are native American or mexacan you are a imagrate also as your ancestors did not origanate here and the land you live on is bloodstained

 

[dawgface]

Grouper, again you don't get it, by that I mean my position. I understand your point of view but will not agree or disagree nor will I acknowledge my involvement if any in your point of contention as this was not what the discussion was about. I find the notion outrageous that I can not give my opinion about a topic without first expunging my self from guilt on all matters related according to public (your) approval. To me this is the equivalent to disregarding my opposition to murder by assuming that I break the law by speeding occasionally. Add to the fact that your entire argument is an assumption without basis, unless you know something about me, my builder and/or hired help that I don't. In addition it appears your perceived guilt of one has a absolute required acceptance of another. e.g. if at one point I've hired illegal help I should dispose of my opinions and denigrate my integrity forever more by congratulating this type of activity.

While I would be happy to discuss the repercussions and my position on illegal migrate workers, I will not justify my position here with a response.

So I say again, I find the acceptance, approval and celebration of knock off anything troubling.

If that in and by itself is condescending by way of postulating my views or actions on another off topic conversation then so be it.

Respectfully,
DawgFace

 

[Jaycen B.]

Ripped Tide;772953 wrote: Aren't vortechs made in china?

If so, then it serves EcoTech right. What did they think was going to happen when they sent the plans over to have the Chinese make them? Let me see, steal the technology, make it cheaper and sell it back to us.

 

[cjsparky]

Jaycen B.;773095 wrote: If so, then it serves EcoTech right. What did they think was going to happen when they sent the plans over to have the Chinese make them? Let me see, steal the technology, make it cheaper and sell it back to us.

Slippery slope here...

 

[Jaycen B.]

Yes it is!

 

[cjsparky]

126 reef;773105 wrote: I could not agree more. To question everyones credibility that disagrees with Chinese knockoffs and label them as hypocrites based on a baseless assumption there could have been an illegal that built your house 20 years ago is absolutely ridiculous. I'm glad Dawgface put it so well so I did not have to do all that typing.

happenstance does not equal hypocracy...I too am glad Dawgface typed it...I am not nearly as elloquent. And I am a crappy speller too!