Cucowlr?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[cedzaquaddiction]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I hate for this to be my first post, but, I desperately need some help. The title is CUCOWLR, and that means that I am left with a Clean Up Crew Only With Live Rock.

I've read all of the stickies, did my own research, didn't cut corners, and tried to set up the tank on an event driven schedule. This means, I waited til the tank let me know when to move instead of the calendar.

To the Point now... I have a 120 gallon tank with 130 pounds of pristine live rock from an established tank (thanks rmrmorris!!! :yes:, and 50 pounds of ecorock), 2-950 gph powerheads circulating water at the upper-middle of the tank, with 2-200 gph powerheads blowing behind the rock btw the glass. The tank was up for 45 days, and at the end of the cycle, I had nitrites for 2 weeks (guess the cycle wasn't over). In comes the water changes. 4-30 gallon water changes, and all parameters read 0 except for ph which read 8.3 for 2 weeks. The RO/DI water from the lfs was used for the initial set up and all water changes. I then seeded the tank with copepods and a CUC after 1 week, and started feeding. After a month, all was well with perfect parameters. Now, to add fish. I got a Koran Angel from the LFS, and wouldn't you know it, his gills got stuck on a rock, and he was dead by morning. After taking him out, and the parameters being stable for 2 weeks, I added 3 firefish. They were good for 2 weeks. Then, I added a kole tang and a sailfin tang. The powder blue didnt even make it out of acclimation (2 fish dead now). The other 2 tangs did well, and were absolutely in love and healthy. After 2 weeks, the sailfin got ich, and I immediately set up a QT tank. While he was in QT for 2 months with a copper treatment, I added a blenny and an engineer goby. All was well, and I added him back to the tank. 2 weeks later, I added 2 clownfish and a very small niger trigger. All was well for a month as I have been keeping up with parameters and water changes. I then saw what I thought was Ich again on my sailfin so he was back into QT. In the meantime, I added a cleaner wrasse and 2 cleaner shrimp to the DT before re-introducing the sailfin. I know this may be a myth, but, it couldnt hurt, right? Well, the cleaner wrasse literally harrassed my sailfin until he passed away (3 fish dead).

I then had to go out of town for a weekend, and my girlfriend fed the fish while I was out. I am using a homemade blend from the lfs that has brine shrimp, seaweed, garlic, pellets, and selcon. I left on Friday night, and returned on Sunday. I know my GF fed the fish, because she sent me picutres. When I returned, my cleaner wrasse, trigger, and blenny were dead. All other fish were extremely stressed, but still eating like pigs. I immediately got the dead fish out, and did water changes even though the parameters were still good. One by one, the remaining fish (except the goby, firefish, and one clown) died one day at a time (I've lost count of dead fish at this time). I am now left with the CUC, goby, 3 firefish, and one clown. All fish were in a 2 week QT and showing no issues before being added to the DT.

So, where do I go from here? I'm setting up my left-over 55 gallon to use as a QT for all remaining fish to live in for 10 weeks so the DT can be fishless long enough for all fish contributing diseases (ich) have died off.

I was aiming at 2 clowns, 3 firefish, 2 tangs, and a niger. That's not too much for a 120, is it? I don't want to give up, but, I'm stressed myself, and may come down with may come down with ich myself, if I can't get this right.

Sorry for the long post, but, I've summed up about 6 months in this post. Any help or advise you all can give will be greatly appreciated while I start over, or give up and go back to freshwater. I've posted this on a couple of forums, as it is great to gather information from as many experts as possible.

Thanks all!!!

 

[stacy22]

What exactly are your perfect parameters? How are you testing them? Did you QT your fish before introducing them to your display tank? Removing one fish and treating for ick does no good if you just introduce that fish back into your display that still harbors the protozoan. Cleaner wrasses do nothing to remove ick. They, along with cleaner shrimp, may remove dead tissue that is the result of a Cryptocaryon </em>infection.</em>

I would let the display remain fishless for at least 8 weeks. QT everything that you get going forward. Four weeks is not long enough to QT new arrivals.

I would also take a look at the store from which you get your fish. They may have some disease/water quality issues.

 

[rdnelson]

I may be wrong here but, you said one of the first fish introduced had ich so you put it in QT to treat. But you added other fish to the display tank during that time. If that is the case, the tank was not fallow giving time for the ich to die out. Therefore, the ich returned. Once ich is in the tank, the only way to ensure you don't have a reinfestation would be to leave the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks. Very sorry for you lose. Looks like you really tried to follow best practices and I know it is very discouraging.

 

[jef4y]

Lots of info from the members above to go through and consider. One other is your food blend. You mention BRINE shrimp. Did you mean Mysis, or is it actually Brine?

If it's Brine, stop that now. Brine is the nutritional equivalent of popcorn to a human. There is almost no value in it. Mysis on the other hand is absolutely suitable for your fish.

Personally my guess is that it's no ONE thing that caused your problems, but a combination of many small things.

I know you mentioned that you started small/slow, but in reading the post, to me it seems like you added a LOT of fish pretty quickly over the course of 6 months. Again, that's just my thought.

 

[dubkie]

Tagging along...

 

[rdnelson]

^^^^ +1

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

Arringar: Thanks so much everyone for your responses. I haven't been getting my fish from a chain pet store, as I know they are more into quantity rather than selling a quality product. The one I have been using here locally is pretty reputable. They do a QT themselves, and if a fish has problems, or if they test your water as a second opinion, and find a problem with it, they will refuse sale of an unhealthy fish, or a healthy fish going to an unhealthy environment. I do trust them, but, I guess it couldn't hurt to try some others. That was a very good point you made in regards to where the fish came from. Just because the lfs is reputable, doesn't mean that the place they get their fish from are...

As for my tangs, they were very juvenile fish. About 2 inches long, and got along very well until the sailfin went away for 2 weeks QT. Upon return, the sailfin was having nothing to do with the kole tang, and it showed...

Filtration consists of a Reef Octopus BH2000 protein skimmer, and I was running carbon through a closed loop system for about a 3 week time period. With more reading, I removed the carbon, and closed loop system, as carbon has been linked to HLLE.

 

[rdnelson]

CedzAquAddiction;796574 wrote: Arringar: Thanks so much everyone for your responses. I haven't been getting my fish from a chain pet store, as I know they are more into quantity rather than selling a quality product. The one I have been using here locally is pretty reputable. They do a QT themselves, and if a fish has problems, or if they test your water as a second opinion, and find a problem with it, they will refuse sale of an unhealthy fish, or a healthy fish going to an unhealthy environment. I do trust them, but, I guess it couldn't hurt to try some others. That was a very good point you made in regards to where the fish came from. Just because the lfs is reputable, doesn't mean that the place they get their fish from are...

As for my tangs, they were very juvenile fish. About 2 inches long, and got along very well until the sailfin went away for 2 weeks QT. Upon return, the sailfin was having nothing to do with the kole tang, and it showed...

Filtration consists of a Reef Octopus BH2000 protein skimmer, and I was running carbon through a closed loop system for about a 3 week time period. With more reading, I removed the carbon, and closed loop system, as carbon has been linked to HLLE.

There is a lot of discussion on carbon and HLLE. From what I gather, if you use a good high quality carbon and make sure it does not tumble (thereby pulverising it) it should not be a problem. Those that say it contributes to HLLE are referring to the fine dust that sometimes gets into the tank.

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

Stacy 22: Tanks to you too for you responses. I'll be at work in a little while. That is where I keep my spreadsheet with the water testing stats. I am testing with the Instant Ocean Master Test Kit, and having the lfs test behind me. I'll post that up in a little while...

Also: All fish were QT for 2 weeks prior to introduction to the DT. I have a 29 gallon set-up for QT with no sand or rock. Just some pvc pipe in it so I can monitor the food consumption and digestion. From your post, it looks like I should be aiming at a longer time period? Well, this may be the perfect time for that. I plan on placing the remaining fish in my 55 gallon for at least 10 weeks while the DT remains fishless to kill off whatever ich may be left there.

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

rdnelson: Thanks os much for your motivation. I really needed that right now. Woke up this morning, and the remaining clown was dead. He was very active when I went to bed, and ate like a pig, but passed in the night.

To your question: The sailfin was the one that got ich, and showed absolutely no signs of it following the initial 2 week QT. About 2 weeks after he was in the DT, I noticed he didn't come out to eat. Later that day, when he did, he was showing signs of ich. That's when I set up yet another QT tank and ran a copper treatment with hyposalinity for 2 weeks. Seems like my mistake was adding him back to the DT too soon. He seemed kind of stressed being in a 10 gallon QT tank, but still the same, I should've kept him there for the full ride. My mistake, and a costly one at that...

Edit: Jef4Ry: You were right. It is, in fact mysis, not brine. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. That's what I get for posting so late in the night. LOL...

Good point of mentioning possibly too many fish over the span of 6 months. I never added more than 3 at a time, and gave the system time to adjust to the bio-load before adding more. Still the same, though it is definetely something to add to the list for my reboot...

Thanks!!!

 

[rdnelson]

Very sorry about the clown. I know exactly how you are feeling right now. I went through a battle with Brooklynella a few months back. It got to the point I didn't want to get up in the morning because I knew I would find another lose. Only had one fish make it through.

But, take a little heart in the fact that you did a lot of things right. When I read your initial post that stood out to me. There are so many things to can jump up and bite you in this hobby and that is where taking lots of time will pay off. We all want that gorgeous tank and want it now but it really takes a couple of years to get to that point.

As for the ich, not sure if you have researched it a lot yet but here is what I know. It is believed it has a 30 day cycle (min). Which means if one fish in the system has it, the parasites can lay eggs, those eggs may lay in the rock and sand for up to 30 days before they hatch. When they hatch, if there are fish present they will infect them and thrive. If however, there are no fish in the tank, they will starve and die out. That is why most recomend a fallow tank for at least 6 weeks. In your case, I suspect when the sailfin first showed signs, it was present in the tank. Although you treated the sailfin in the QT the ich was still in the display tank and therefore when you reintroduced the sailfin it contracted the parasite again along with the other fish.

Trust me, I am no expert but that is what I have learned from some of the pros on this site. Take the next 6 weeks to do lots of research. Pick out what fish you want to go back with and decide on what order you want to add them based on aggression and things like that.

Good luck and don't give up.

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

rdnelson99: Thanks so much. I really needed to hear that. Aside from the hurt of loosing a fish (its funny how these things end up being like children to you, and you want the best for them), it is very discouraging to see somehting you've worked so hard on crumble before your very eyes.

You all have a good point in that the ich was probably still hanging around in the tank, and re-infected my sailfin. I am just puzzled on how it got there in the first place. I have heard that most fish have it in them, and it doesn't become an issue until they are stressed, but all fish went through an additional QT (besides the QT that the lfs does) before being added. Well, either way, my DT will remain fishless for several weeks now along with a reef safe treatment.

I'll keep this thread going through my reboot. If you all don't mind, please check on me here every now and then. If you see me doing something wrong, please feel free to chime in...

I have a feeling the answer is probably no, but, I want to ask to confirm it... Can any coral be added during this fallow period, or should I sale what I have and restart with the coral after the reboot? There is currently none in there now, but, I had a couple of frags that I was going to experiment on standby.

Thanks all...

 

[KrisDeitz]

Corals are fine. Just leave the tank fish less and your good

 

[thanh386]

Rich giving sound advice??? I need to keep my eyes out for flying pigs today.

 

[snowmansnow]

1st, sorry for all the issues you're having. I'll say this can be a frustrating hobby haha (to say the LEAST)

It seems like you're trying to keep your head around the basics through research and asking questions, and thats the way to go.

Don't get discouraged.

Be careful making your own food. Make sure you're not using brine .. like a poster above said... its kinda like eating paper for us haha.

Is there a chance some foreign substance got into the tank?&gt; Are you using an air freshener close bye? Any sprays or anything like that that could have gotten into the system.

Lets add fish one at a time next time Wait at least a week between them IMO... Some folks will disagree based on the fish being territorial, but at least you don't nuke an entire reef worth of fish at once

As far as the number goes? I think you're ok in a 120... The concern I have is that that is a LOT of rock, unless they are just really heavy small rocks. I probably only have 60 lbs of Pukani in my 120. You MAY can get away with 2 tangs for a while, but IMO 1 is enough for a 120... I suppose you're talking yellow tang?

Good luck! PM me if I can help!

YOU CAN DO IT! (watched the water boy a few nights ago)

B

 

[chris s]

Are you sure it's ich? It could be Brooklynella. They are often confused and copper has no effect on Brooklynella. As Rich has seen it kills quickly. JennM has helped many people battle Brooklynella and she recommends Hikari Ich-X. It is formalin based and treats both but you cannot use it with copper medication because it will react.

If it is brooklynella you need a minimum four weeks without fish in your tank to let it die off.

As others have mentioned for Ich four weeks is the bare minimum but six is a safer bet.

Both Ich and Brooklynella need a fish host to survive. You can add corals while you are waiting for the disease to run it's course. My friend battled brook and lost. He added a bunch of frags during the six weeks he waited. He gave it an extra two weeks just to be sure. Why risk it.

 

[rdnelson]

Thanh386;796608 wrote: Rich giving sound advice??? I need to keep my eyes out for flying pigs today.

LOL I may not know much but I am like a parot. I repeat whatever I hear. hehehehehe

The corals are what kept me going through my down time. It was so hard to watch the tank sit there with no fish. But, I used that time to concentrate on getting things right for my corals and watching them grow. Adding a few easy corals to start will be good for your moral if nothing else. Start with easy stuff so you have success and don't add more loss (yes this time I spelled "loss" correctly).

Wish you were closer. I have a few things that were given to me that are near indestructable. Some are considerred pest but for someone just starting they do a lot to get you going and have some growth in the tank. Look for a toadstool mushroom, blue tip stag horn, nuclear green pallys. Those things grow like crazy and are nice additions to a tank in my opinion. Sure none of the guys collecting limited addition stuff will say "Wow look at that" but who cares. A good looking tank is a good looking tank in my opinion. :up:

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

Thanks everyone... I've gone ahead and ordered a RO/DI today. I'm gonna attack this thing head on, and want to have everything I need close at hand starting with the water.

SnowManSnow: Is there a chance something may have gotten in my tank? Good question... This brings something to mind. I'll answer your question while I ask another... I keep my tank about 85% covered to reduce the chance of a foreign substance getting into it and reduce my evaporation to some degree. I don't vacuum as I have all wood floors, and don't spray any air freshener or anything around the house. If there is anything harmful in there, it may have come from the rock or substrate. I rinsed all of it in RO/DI water before adding it to the tank for the initial set up. My question is: Are there any negative effects to having a tank 85% covered? I leave enough gap in the cover to allow for air circulation.

Live Rock: I really wish I could get rid of some of it, or at least move some to my 55 gallon as the original plan for the 55 was a mantis tank. I was under the impression that I had to have at least 1.5 lbs per gallon. If I can get away with 90-100 pounds in my 120, that'd be great and free some up for my 55 gallon. Can I get away with 90-100 pounds of LR in my DT?

Probably going to stretch the number of fish added out a little bit more next-go-round...

Chris S: I'm pretty sure it was ich on the sailfin. Quite honestly, the way the clownfish looked in their last days more resembled Brooklynella. They passed very quickly too, which leads me to think Brook even more. They were healthy when I left Friday, stressed when I returned Sunday, and Dead Monday and Today. Didn't even have a chance to see if they would pull through with healthy feeding.

Either one, should be gone by the time this tank sees another fish. I'm going with 10 weeks fallow. Is this overkill?

Rdnelson99 and all: Looks like this will be a good time to get my corals up and going. I'm going to take your advice, and start with something simple and hardy at first.


Edit....... I just realized my girlfriend did some cleaning while I was out of town. I'll make sure that I ask her if she was spraying any cleaner around the tank, and make sure she washed her hands and rinsed them thoroughly before feeding the fish. I'd hate to find out that she had bleach or pine cleaner on her hands when she fed the fish.
Sheesh: I hope that's not it. If so, I'm having the worst luck...

 

[stacy22]

My other half sprayed a bunch of Febreeze near my 300g a while back. I lost several fish and could not understand why. Nothing seemed out of sorts with water chemistry or temperature, etc. THEN I saw the Febreeze can. Some water changes, polyfilter and carbon and I finally got things stabilized. Chemicals near a tank can be disasterous.

 

[cedzaquaddiction]

Oh boy. I hope that's not it, but, at the same time, if it is, I hope she fesses up, so I will at least know what happened, and can move on. If that is the case, I can't be too mad at her. She was trying to help me out, but, my checking account will be pissed!!! LOL!!!