Ich and treatment in our tanks! You too can be Ich free!

Ya we will agree to disagree on this. I do respect your opinion. When I have more energy, I will PM you a few sources for your opinion on that indicate that Hypo state can make biological functions easier for a fish and the only downside, with extream exposure or longterm exposure is the reduced kidney functions within the fish. Maybe I will sacrifice a Chromis to the cause and see how long I can keep him in Hypo without him going mad or dying!

I think that everyone knows that you are not attacking them. I realize that you have alot of knowledge of fish pathology and illness and I do respect your opinion!
 
jmaneyapanda wrote: Hey Cameron, buddy- long time- no argue, huh!?:up: Yeah, you know I'm just messing with you. Anyway, belive it or not, I disagree with some of the things you said.
I love debating you. You got game and I have always learned during them.

jmaneyapanda wrote: Now, how do fish from typical tropical coral reefs in the wild live in a hyposalinic environment? This I just dont get at all. How can it be hyposalinic to itself? These fish are not found in areas with s desnity of 1.015 or less (which is where I'm guessing people run their hypo). Most reefs are saltier than that, and probably even saltier than the tanks we keep. Red Sea fish, even higher than that. So how are these environments hyposalinic?
I should have said some not many. That out of the way, larger than expected rainfalls, runoff, tidal pools, etc. can all lead to a decreased salinity. Several fish species that are considered salt water species do fine in brackish and even freshwater. Can anyone say bull shark? Course that doesn't go in the typical aquarium. Some of areas where monsoons and heavy rainy seasons can see huge swings in salinity for brief periods.

jmaneyapanda wrote: Now here is where I get all philosophical on you- In your third paragraph, you suggest hypo if you have a guarantee. To me, that sucks. I dont ever put money before the care of my animals. If there was no guarantee, would you still hypo? I feel really strongly that the ethics of this hobby should be to do everything possible to care for the animals we have decided to keep. Where do you draw the line? If you have a 30 day guranatee, and the fish isn't 100%, do you kill it to get your money back?
The needs of the few out-weigh the needs of the many. I grew up on a farm so animals are animals. I have skinned, gutted, beheaded more than my share. In many ways my tank is an investment and new fish present a risk to that investment. I want to make sure everyone is going to do well.

jmaneyapanda wrote: But along those lines, you are assuming that hypo does a healthy fish no harm. Why? Because you cant see spots, or missing scales, or other typical symptoms. I agrgue, it does cause some degree of harm, maybe not a huge amount, but some.
The only thing we know for sure is that it puts excess work on the kidneys. The rest for the most part is pure speculation. I know when a fish comes out of a hypo quarantine he has less parasites and is probably a bit high from the excess oxygen. He has pee'd a bit too much as well since he drank more than he was used to. I (key on the I... as in IMO) don't think brief exposures to this environment is harmful in the long term.

jmaneyapanda wrote: Just my opnion, no offense intended.
Unless it gets personal, I am never offended by a disagreement.

Brandon, it isn't that I think a FW dip is harmful. I just don't think it does much good if you are going into a hypo environment. Anything that won't survive a fresh water dip likely won't surive hypo for a couple weeks either.
 
Cameron;31024 wrote:
Brandon, it isn't that I think a FW dip is harmful. I just don't think it does much good if you are going into a hypo environment. Anything that won't survive a fresh water dip likely won't surive hypo for a couple weeks either.

Ya, the reason that I advocate it so much is for the relief that I think it can bring to a fish, ASAP. (Well that and the reports that Methylene Blue helps Cyanide exposure.)
 
GIVE THIS GUY MANY REP POINTS.....great job ....hats off to you...publish this post :yes:
 
Hey Cam- cool. I really dont consider this debate, but instead discussion. I'm glad we can do so on good terms. Now, lets get to the meat of it....There are many species that are brackish, and many that are capable of going between heavier salinities to brackish- this is correct. Yet, I would hardly call these fish we keep in our aquariums. We mostly keep reef fish, due to their size, colors, and tolerance. This is what I'm referring to. These fish do not naturally encounter such salinity swings. Even so, I'm not sure flash salinity changes can be applied to fish tolerance in lagoons, inlets, etc. Do the fish that live in these areas simply stay put when a load of freshwater makes the very "local" environment less saline, or do they evacuate to a saltier area? I would guess the latter.
Regarding the fish kill statement I made- I perhaps didn't make my point clear and spoke out of line. I understand animals will die, or be killed, or need to be euthanized at times. This, I have no issue with. What rubbed me the wrong way was the "guarantee" comment. You are correct, we all have investments in our tanks (many of us- very considerable investments). I anyone decided that an animal had no place in their tank to save their investment, I agree. If someone decided a fish was untreatably doomed, and culled it, I agree. However, to me, it is irresponsible, and unethical in this hobby to cull a fish to simply collect a refund or guarantee. Treating fish as expendable and replaceable for the sake of profit has no place in this hobby (in my own opinion).

Now, to hypo- this is my point. You say it "puts excess work on the kidneys". To me, biologically- this EXACTLY means it has deleterious effects on the excretory system. You are applying a environment to this fish that is causing undue stress and harm to it's body. How much harm? I dont know and I have never claimed to know. Is it reparable? Perhaps, in fact, likely. But, back to my original point- it is negetively effecting them. I hope everyone can see this is the crux of my point. Hyposalinity is being thrown around here as having no negative effect on the fish. This can't be true, because otherwise the fish could sustain lower salinities, or even the same lowered salinity eternally. In reality, I could make the claim that hypo destroys lateral line tissue. I have seen extensive HLLE in fish that are kept in hypo- far greater than in other systems at normal salinity. I am NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, because I dont have any data to back it up at all. But my theory has just as much validity as everyone elses who says it doesnt hurt the fish. We both have our undocumented and unstudied observations, which show two opposite conclusions.

So getting back to Brandons original question to me- why do I oppose hyposalinity as a prophyalctic treatment? Because it negatively impacts the fish, possibly unecessarily at a time when the fish is already under great stress. Let me ask this question back- if I kep a fish in a QT tank, at normal salinity for 6 weeks, and it never shows the telltale "white spots", flashes, shows respiratory distress, or other symptoms, can it have ick?
 
jmaneyapanda;31102 wrote: These fish do not naturally encounter such salinity swings. Even so, I'm not sure flash salinity changes can be applied to fish tolerance in lagoons, inlets, etc. Do the fish that live in these areas simply stay put when a load of freshwater makes the very "local" environment less saline, or do they evacuate to a saltier area? I would guess the latter.
I have a book that discusses this topic in depth and I will try and dig it out. It has examples of reef environments that go through huge salinity swings throughout the year. Including mass drowning of fish from hypersalinity. I will dig it up. It is a marine biology book I found from 70s in a used book store.

jmaneyapanda;31102 wrote: Regarding the fish kill statement I made- I perhaps didn't make my point clear and spoke out of line. I understand animals will die, or be killed, or need to be euthanized at times. This, I have no issue with. What rubbed me the wrong way was the "guarantee" comment. You are correct, we all have investments in our tanks (many of us- very considerable investments). I anyone decided that an animal had no place in their tank to save their investment, I agree. If someone decided a fish was untreatably doomed, and culled it, I agree. However, to me, it is irresponsible, and unethical in this hobby to cull a fish to simply collect a refund or guarantee. Treating fish as expendable and replaceable for the sake of profit has no place in this hobby (in my own opinion).
My belief is that if a fish can't live through hypo for two weeks they are doomed anyway and pose a potential risk to my other livestock. Hypo isn't that harmful to a fish IMO and most fish should make it. A fish that should make it through hypo and doesn't is a sick/weak fish that presents an ongoing threat with chronic disease risk. A fish that makes it through hypo fine, will have a much better chance of staying healthy and living a long life. I am not feeding the fish copper or wacking it with a stick. I am pre-treating it to avoid wiping out my tank. If I were a bleeding heart on this, I would go to my local pet store and buy up all the slow moving fish and try and save them. I am not though. I buy fish and consider them an investment to some degree. I want to spend my money wisely and I want quality specimens.

jmaneyapanda;31102 wrote: Now, to hypo- this is my point. You say it "puts excess work on the kidneys". To me, biologically- this EXACTLY means it has deleterious effects on the excretory system. You are applying a environment to this fish that is causing undue stress and harm to it's body. How much harm? I dont know and I have never claimed to know. Is it reparable? Perhaps, in fact, likely. But, back to my original point- it is negetively effecting them. I hope everyone can see this is the crux of my point. Hyposalinity is being thrown around here as having no negative effect on the fish. This can't be true, because otherwise the fish could sustain lower salinities, or even the same lowered salinity eternally. In reality, I could make the claim that hypo destroys lateral line tissue. I have seen extensive HLLE in fish that are kept in hypo- far greater than in other systems at normal salinity. I am NOT MAKING THAT CLAIM, because I dont have any data to back it up at all. But my theory has just as much validity as everyone elses who says it doesnt hurt the fish. We both have our undocumented and unstudied observations, which show two opposite conclusions.
This is just a fundamental disagreement. I believe the risk to the fish is worth the elimination of potentially deadly parasites. I think the parasites attached to a fish are more dangerous than the cure. I think the risk of hurting the fish is worth it to keep my other tank inhabitants healthy. I think any "damage" that might occur is short term and is repaired.

I can even go so far as saying that small treatments in hypo could actually be beneficial for a fish. Increased oxygen promotes healing and increased kidney function helps purge harmful toxins from the body much like hypo chambers and water pills for people. You can't live in them as they will kill you, but short exposures can increase your health.

jmaneyapanda;31102 wrote: So getting back to Brandons original question to me- why do I oppose hyposalinity as a prophyalctic treatment? Because it negatively impacts the fish, possibly unecessarily at a time when the fish is already under great stress. Let me ask this question back- if I kep a fish in a QT tank, at normal salinity for 6 weeks, and it never shows the telltale "white spots", flashes, shows respiratory distress, or other symptoms, can it have ick?
and the answer... A fish can be continually infected by ick over several weeks. It is very unlikely to occur, but a healthy fish even after 6 weeks can still be sporting ick if you haven't been watching close enough and I mean very close. Outside of ick there are a host of parasites with a much longer life cycle than ick that hypo kills. Some of these infestations live in the gills and unless you know exactly what you are looking for can go unseen and right into your tank 6 weeks later. Look at Black Spot Disease. Those little worms can live for months once expelled from the fish. On a dark fish they are practically invisible.

You of all people suprise me on this one. First, you have virtually zero evidence that short durations in hypo actually hurt a fish. You know some biological effects take place, but no proven data as to any actual damage in the fish. You do know that most parasites are killed because they can't adjust to the change in pressure. To me the facts out weigh the unproven concerns.
 
jmaneyapanda;31102 wrote: Hey Cam- cool. I really dont consider this debate, but instead discussion. I'm glad we can do so on good terms. Now, lets get to the meat of it....
I want to debate the discussion versus debate!
 
Sure it's possible, highly unlikely but possible, it's a carrier still, it's unlikely that you would have any issues given that if the Ich is not on the fish it probably won't be transferred (as it will be on the substrate, etc.) but again it's possible.

Look we're getting insanely academic again. No one is saying you could keep a fish in hypo forever. Obviously the environment is different. They couldn't live forever as the kidneys are working harder. There is no evidence whosoever though that hypo causes any issues at the recommended times 3-4 weeks and salinity 1.009-1.011. In fact quite the contrary.

From: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/3/aafeature1">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/3/aafeature1</a>

"Contrary to the commonly held belief that a salinity lower than natural seawater is stressful to marine teleost fish (bony reef fish), reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance (Wedemeyer, 1996. Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to matching the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment"

Again to me it's like a human vaccination. Does a vaccination cause your body some issues. Absolutely! In fact many times you will become sick for a short period of time with a flu vaccine. So by your theory we should never do flu vaccinations because we have no signs of the flu. We should just wait until we show signs of the disease and then hope we can catch up and treat it. To me hypo qt is much less stressful then waiting and watching and then seeing Ich/signs of Ich. Surly you see that having ICh is more stressful then not. Given the large number of fish that have it and the almost 100% certainty that they have at least been exposed it's just like a vaccine.
 
kwl1763;31120 wrote:
Again to me it's like a human vaccination. Does a vaccination cause your body some issues. Absolutely! In fact many times you will become sick for a short period of time with a flu vaccine. So by your theory we should never do flu vaccinations because we have no signs of the flu. We should just wait until we show signs of the disease and then hope we can catch up and treat it. To me hypo qt is much less stressful then waiting and watching and then seeing Ich/signs of Ich. Surly you see that having ICh is more stressful then not. Given the large number of fish that have it and the almost 100% certainty that they have at least been exposed it's just like a vaccine.

You took the words right out of my mouth! I do not advocate use of copper as a preventive treatment or Formalin Dips. Both are too harsh for a healthy fish and too hard to do properly do for the untrained reefer! I am not going to go on Chemo theropy because I could get cancer in the future. Hypo on the other hand is a different story. I travel the world and when I go to a third world country, I make sure that I have been taking anti-biotics. Too many times have I come down with a stomach infection or some other nasty crap. I prevent that from happening before I show symptoms. Is it good to pop anti-biotics into my body when I do not need them? Yes, I do not like taking anything that I do not need! Are there minor side effects? There sure are! Is it better and less stressful to me then the alternitive if I get sick? You bet, a long flight from SE Asia with "Butt O' Fire" will teach you that lesson pretty quick!

Again, I wrote, and quoted, the original thread for a general audience. I would wager to guess the average reefer does not have the experience in fish pathology that you do. I stand by my theory that it is better to be safe then sorry. All too often, I think that people overlook the signs of illness even after a QT period. I think that it is human nature to rush the QT process. Of course, we want to see the fish in our display tanks, that is why we got them, but two weeks in QT is doing nothing any good.

Do I think that Hypo is harmful for the fish? Not at all! No more harmful to a HEALTHY fish then the flu shot that I should have gotten last year! Fish coming out of QT have better color, more healthy behavior, increased appitite, etc.
 
Strictly speaking a flu shot is a poor example if you know how the vacs are made. They are designed to target one flu (or very small subset) that the manufactorers guess will be the strain that hits that year. They are wrong as often as they are right. Even with a flu shot you have a 50/50 shot of getting the right one. Additionally in some people, the flu shot will actually cause the flu albeit a milder version than the actual one.

Personally, I advocate avoiding the flu shot unless you are in a weakend state and the flu could pose a potential long term health risk.

Drive by hijacking provided by your local Cameron.
 
Give me a break! ;)

That is like saying my example of "butt o' fire" was not quite correct because it does not burn as much as just flow out because the higher level of expellent lowers the acid content in said waste. So my analogy should have stated "butt o' flow" instead of fire! But then again it could reintroduce as "butt o' flow AND fire" if you ate chilis with your meal in SE Asia that gave you a stomach bug. The added level of capsaisin to said expellent would increase the Scoville rating felt by the butt, thus offsetting any decrease of acid in the waste but not decreasing the flow rate, thus leading back to the original term of "Butt O' Fire" with the addition of "flow". In mathmatical format it would look something like this: B - A = Bof + C = Boff, Where B = bateria A = antibiotic Bof = Butt of Flow C = capsaisin and Boff = Bott o' flow and fire
 
I was just pointing out that a flu vaccine is targetted to one or a small subset of viruses and doesn't actually prevent giving you the flu. It pre-gives you the flu and not always the right one.

A proper hypo QT is like carpet bombing parasites. Your anti-biotic example is a good example.
 
Excellent written post/article.
Personnally,
I maintain a 10gal qt even when I don't have any fish or corals in it. I keep it like a nano with nothing more than sand, live rock, airstone, water pump, and a cleaner shrimp and some snails. I QT EVERYTHING for at least 4 weeks including frags. If something new goes in the 4 week starts again. Since this setup started, I had cases of ick occur in my QT tank. Then it ran without fish for 8 weeks before anything new was added. When the fish display signs of ick I move the fish to a treatment tank with nothing in it except PVC hiding places, air stone, and pump, where the water is changed at 50% and the bare bottom is wiped down with dry sponge everyday for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks, water is changed every other day until fish are without ick for a full 4 weeks. It SUCKS but it works for me. I have only lost 1 fish in the treatment tank since I started this regime and have managed to SLOWLY add fish to my main tank that ran fallow for 10 weeks.
I too believe I have an ick-free tank.

No you haven't seen my system, only JustOneMoreTank and another member who never posts has. But I am here to tell you that we are out here.

Off soap box.
Delaney.
 
delaneymohr;31152 wrote: Excellent written post/article.
Personnally,
I maintain a 10gal qt even when I don't have any fish or corals in it. I keep it like a nano with nothing more than sand, live rock, airstone, water pump, and a cleaner shrimp and some snails. I QT EVERYTHING for at least 4 weeks including frags. If something new goes in the 4 week starts again. Since this setup started, I had cases of ick occur in my QT tank. Then it ran without fish for 8 weeks before anything new was added. When the fish display signs of ick I move the fish to a treatment tank with nothing in it except PVC hiding places, air stone, and pump, where the water is changed at 50% and the bare bottom is wiped down with dry sponge everyday for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks, water is changed every other day until fish are without ick for a full 4 weeks. It SUCKS but it works for me. I have only lost 1 fish in the treatment tank since I started this regime and have managed to SLOWLY add fish to my main tank that ran fallow for 10 weeks.
I too believe I have an ick-free tank.

No you haven't seen my system, only JustOneMoreTank and another member who never posts has. But I am here to tell you that we are out here.

Off soap box.
Delaney.


I applaud your efforts and husbandry. You are right, it is more work but well worth it in the end. How much money do you think you have saved in dead fish? How much work has been saved in the long run by being proactive?
 
I love the spirited discussion! I learned quite a bit from both viewpoints and appreciate the civility. I do have to admit I want to side with jamney's point of view since that has been my personal philosophy as well... and have consequently only lost one or two fish to carpet surfing. However, I am not ashamed to admit that I think I've been sufficiently swayed to the dark side by the risk/reward ratio. Well done guys.
 
Welcome to the dark side, Luke! Listen let me make one other point to convert you totally over. If there was a technique that I told you you could do to your fish that would lesson the chances of your fish dying (Think mutated coat kind of like a clown) when they decided to carpet surf by lets say by 90%. Such treatment had been utilized for years by advanced reefers and studied and was shown to have little to no ill effects long term on the fish. Would you be interested?!? Think of the two fish that you would have saved in the past. Think of all the fish that you could save in the future.

The same applies to Ich IMHO. Little no no ill effects of treatment, greater chance of happening then carpet surfing by a dee-dee-dee fish, improved overall health of the tank. Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

Welcome to the dark side, we mail out membership cards on the 1st and the 15th! :D
 
This is great info as I am in the midst of cycling my tank.

Thanks everyone for their knowledge. You have no idea how this helps a newbie like myself.
 
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