Thoughts on stray voltage-confused

[skymastre]

Scenario: I think I have a fish with broklynella. Whilst coming to the conclusion, someone recommended I test for stray voltage. hooked up into the tank is a brand new out of the box koralia nano, 230 g and an older heater (forget the brand). Keep in mind this is just a rapidly put together quarentiine tank w/ a rather sad clown that occupies it.


Ok, so here is the question.

How much voltage is too much? The following pictures are from the experiment, but in brief

1. Saltwater conductance = 1 volt (for all you physicists you'll remember Na-cl... )

2. Heater adds about 17.22 volts (see last picture)

3. Pump adds about 17 volts

I suspect the findings will be similar in my main tank where I run a koralia nano 425g and a marine stealth heater.

Thoughts?

 

[jennm]

Stealth heaters are notorious for voltage...

I wouldn't have submerged the probe completely, just touched the metal part into the water (not sure of those are water-tight).

If I find 1 or 2 volts I usually don't fret, but anything over that, I start investigating. Heaters seem to be the worst offenders. But anything connected to the tank can cast voltage - I think Grouper Therapy wrote a good article on it I'll post a link if I can find it.

That's not a Stealth heater in the photo... but anything that's casting voltage should be replaced.

Here's that post by Grouper Therapy: http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34410&highlight=voltage">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34410&highlight=voltage</a>

Jenn

 

[skymastre]

Koralia readings


Note that with the pump and heater Voltage jumps to 30

 

[jennm]

Looks like a bad Koralia too. If it was purchased under a year ago you should be able to return/exchange it. If it's an older series it would be replaced with a new Evolution of similar capacity.

Jenn

 

[skymastre]

JennM;575163 wrote: Stealth heaters are notorious for voltage...

I wouldn't have submerged the probe completely, just touched the metal part into the water (not sure of those are water-tight).

If I find 1 or 2 volts I usually don't fret, but anything over that, I start investigating. Heaters seem to be the worst offenders. But anything connected to the tank can cast voltage - I think Grouper Therapy wrote a good article on it I'll post a link if I can find it.

That's not a Stealth heater in the photo... but anything that's casting voltage should be replaced.

Here's that post by Grouper Therapy: http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34410&highlight=voltage">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34410&highlight=voltage</a>

Jenn[/QUOTE]

Great point Jenn. I'll rerun. The heater isn't stealth, that's on my main tank.

The thing is the pump itself jumps voltage to 20. I will rerun again though, operator error seems to be with me today in everything I do.

 

[jennm]

Understood about the Stealth but my $5 says it's throwing voltage... and if it isn't, give it a bit more time, it will.

Jenn

 

[skymastre]

skymastre;575166 wrote: Great point Jenn. I'll rerun. The heater isn't stealth, that's on my main tank.

The thing is the pump itself jumps voltage to 20. I will rerun again though, operator error seems to be with me today in everything I do.

Yea, when rerunning it the voltage jumps to 20.

It's a brand new Koralia nano-I'll check my maxi and koralia on the display tank but suspect I'll find the same problems.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

FWIW, Brookynella and stray voltage are COMPLETELY unrelated. I am one of those aquarists who think stray voltage is blamed for far too many problems than it actually causes. I have seen some tanks with almost 40 v, with no appreciable problem. I dont think we should run tanks like that, but I dont think they cause such problem. Just my opinion.

 

[skymastre]

Great article, by the way. Thanks

 

[jead85]

That is an aqueon/petco heater

 

[skymastre]

jead85;575174 wrote: That is an aqueon/petco heater

Yea, you're never going to believe this but my next door neighbor threw the aquarium, heater, and a bunch of other stuff away when his house foreclosed on.

I got there before the trash man did, and with some scubbing and rinsing...well, wound up with a tank that would eventually become a quarantine tank

Not my proudest moment.

 

[skymastre]

After a pretty extensive investigation I've found I don't have a single item that kicks off less than 10 Volts of electricity. Most of the items I have measure about 20 V.


The resistance of my water measures 35

Solving for current

V / R = I = 0.57

All of my equipment (except the petco) is new. I tested a maxi 1200/900, a marine stealth, and two koralias.

Now I've got a test tomorrow in cardio but I'm curious about the dangers of current and will have to review more. I'll have to think about this more later and reread the post jenn gave me.

 

[jennm]

jmaneyapanda;575170 wrote: FWIW, Brookynella and stray voltage are COMPLETELY unrelated. I am one of those aquarists who think stray voltage is blamed for far too many problems than it actually causes. I have seen some tanks with almost 40 v, with no appreciable problem. I dont think we should run tanks like that, but I dont think they cause such problem. Just my opinion.

I don't think it's a direct cause of any outbreak either but my opinion is that if it's causing stress to the fish, that can lower their resistance.

Not scientific, just anecdotal, based on experience.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

Sky, is it possible that there's a problem with the outlet, and/or power strip if you use one? I've seen that happen too... if it's possible to plug them into a different outlet or power strip, you might find that is the source of the problem.

Not impossible for multiple devices to cause appreciable voltage, but it seems unlikely that all do...

Just something to check.

Jenn

 

[lifestudent]

jmaneyapanda;575170 wrote: FWIW, Brookynella and stray voltage are COMPLETELY unrelated. I am one of those aquarists who think stray voltage is blamed for far too many problems than it actually causes. I have seen some tanks with almost 40 v, with no appreciable problem. I dont think we should run tanks like that, but I dont think they cause such problem. Just my opinion.

I humblely beg to differ. After battling ich for well over a year (and loosing too many fish to recall without twinging ), I had 39 volts of stray voltage due to the induction of a flourescent fixture. After only changing out the fixture did both my voltage and ich problems to away.

While my experience is anecdotal, I believe the stress caused by such stray voltage was enough to stress or weaken the fishes' immune system and thereby allow them to succumb to disease and parasites that that would have normally been able to fend off.

 

[skymastre]

JennM;575208 wrote: Sky, is it possible that there's a problem with the outlet, and/or power strip if you use one? I've seen that happen too... if it's possible to plug them into a different outlet or power strip, you might find that is the source of the problem.

Not impossible for multiple devices to cause appreciable voltage, but it seems unlikely that all do...

Just something to check.

Jenn

I agree entirely. I tested with and without powerstrips and got the same results with different electrical outlets in the house.

It may be a problem with the potential difference between the positive lead and the ground. It may be that the ground has some degree of voltage running through it...or something like that, though to this effect I am skeptical.

Anecdotal evidence is very dangerous-then again experience is sometimes worth more than studies! The logic that being exposed to abnormal current weakening immune systems sounds very reasonable-especially if fish are all ready stressed to begin with. What I want to know is 'how much current' is bad or poses a risk. The mucosal layer of a fish should insulate to some degree from current...like our skin protects us when we put it in the water.

What's the 'threshold'?

I really need to investigate this more. If I get up there this weekend I'll bring my multitester with me to compare with yours-are you going to be at your store? It is possible the one I got is defective or there is operator error (aka I'm retarded). It is also possible the sensitivities are different of the the testing devices.

 

[jwevans79]

have u checked that your electrical service and that circuit is properly grounded?

 

[jennm]

Yep, I'll be there all weekend.

Bob's (Lifestudent's) experience was about 8 years ago and we both scratched our heads for a long time over it. He did everything right, even quarantining new arrivals but it seemed that as soon as they went into his display, they became infested with ich. He even left his system fallow for (6?) weeks but it still recurred... the problem seemed to defy all logic, and was very frustrating to him, and to me as we worked together to try to figure it out.

After losing several Flame Angels and others, I did a ton of research and found a reference to stray voltage, so we bought a meter and tested. Just like he said, once the problem fixture was corrected, the issues subsided. I believe he had a 6 Lined wrasse that never showed symptoms, but even that fish was treated in quarantine, because for a while we wondered if he was a "carrier" that never showed symptoms. Even after a proper treatment protocol, leaving the display fallow, and all the other standard recommendations, new arrivals always became infested shortly after introduction to the display, even after quarantine/treatment prior to their arrival in the display. Once the voltage issue was addressed, no more issues.

Over the years, I've seen similar situations happen, and based on that learning experience, I've learned to make checking for voltage part of the routine troubleshooting when we encounter similar problems. Frequently we do find voltage and replacing the defective equipment is just part of the big picture, but seems to consistently help in resolving the problem.

So yes, it's anecdotal, but many situations over many years, leads me to believe that it's not a coincidence.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

Sky - how much current is OK? I don't know. It's not uncommon to find 1-2 volts. That doesn't seem to be an issue, at least IME, but I don't know what the magic number is between what's "OK" and what's not. Usually if I find anything over about 2, it's usually much higher, in the teens or worse. That usually indicates some defective item.

I've even seen a bad timer be the culprit. I cannot explain the "how" since the timer or the light plugged into it did not come in contact with the water, but that was found to be the bad piece of equipment, discovered by simple process of elimination. When the light was plugged into the timer there was voltage (18 volts I think), and when the light was plugged directly into the wall, no volts. Customer replaced the timer, problems subsided.

IME if it's more than 1-2 volts, it will be in the teens or higher. I've seen as much as 94 volts (compliments of a Stealth heater)...

Jenn

 

[bruce 1]

Will any volt meter work?