Stray voltage DISCUSSION note- I want to discuss, not rant and attack!!! :)

[humahuma]

jmaneyapanda,
Why don't you use google or yahoo and look up some articles about this subject. Then send the authors of those articles an e-mail regarding the specific questions you have that no one on here can answer. Then after they have responded you could pass that information on to us. That would be a great service to our club!

 

[masand]

JeF4y;611562 wrote: Marketing should never be confused with reality... LOL...

I agree. In practice, I think it's more like a lightning rod; the probe offers electricity a less resistant path to ground than the human body.

 

[brianjfinn]

humahuma;611612 wrote: jmaneyapanda,
Why don't you use google or yahoo and look up some articles about this subject. Then send the authors of those articles an e-mail regarding the specific questions you have that no one on here can answer. Then after they have responded you could pass that information on to us. That would be a great service to our club!

Have you tried this? IME, very little information is out there to be found.

 

[humahuma]

I just did a search for "stray voltage in aqauarium" on both google and yahoo.

Google=>26,200 results
http://www.google.com/search?q=stray+voltage+in+aquarium&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a">stray voltage in aquarium - Google Search</a>

yahoo=&gt;33,100 results
[IMG]http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AniccdywaER0hdcXTtKpx8mbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-701-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF8&p=stray%20voltage%20in%20aquarium">http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AniccdywaER0hdcXTtKpx8mbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-701-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF8&p=stray%20voltage%20in%20aquarium</a>

Now all you have to do is just click and read. :) Good luck. Let us know what you find.

 

[darcurr]

LilRobb;611570 wrote: Not true,
a Faraday cage directs the current AROUND the object rather than through it.
This is not isolation...

+1
Faraday's law states that charge resides on the outside of a conductor.

 

[jef4y]

darcurr;611636 wrote: +1
Faraday's law states that charge resides on the outside of a conductor.

Ugh... My point was simply directing people to the concept of what keeps them safe when lightning hits the car that they are in.

My use of the term "isolation" was that the person inside of the vehicle was not going to experience the charge experienced on the outside surface of the vehicle.

Does that clear it up?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

rolo65;611495 wrote: my thought would be that in regard to tangs considering they are the main but not only benefactors of HLLE...the lateral line they have is much more sensitive to electricity than that of a more carnivorous fish...by this i mean that a carnivorous fish uses its lateral line to pick up on electrical fields given off by prey animals...I.E. ampule of lorenzini in sharks....they are highly sensitive to impulses but only enough to pick up on the type of prey they hunt....now think about it this way....tangs/surgeonfish are herbivores for the most part correct?.....so they eat seaweed...and seaweed is mostly found in high water flow areas.....(reefs, shore breaks, rockwalls)....now maybe, just maybe.....(and if you think im an idiot by all means tell me)...but is it possible that the friction created by seaweed and algae(and yes it does cause a small amount of friction) in saltwater makes a minute electrical impulse...that is almost immeasurable...or just hasnt tried to be...and tangs are able to pick up on this minute impulse ..(think about socks on carpet... for the friction element....it creates electricity)....now....is it possible that the electrical field given off by patches of algae along the reef show up to a tang in a way that it would resemble looking though an infrared lens....(hotpoints are brighter)...so with all that rambling....is it conceivable that a tangs lateral line is much much more sensitive to electricity than other fish...therefore the possibility of any electricity(if it can be picked up on a voltage meter then its there....theres no getting around that)in a enclosed system in greater than what its evolved to contend with would damage the lateral line....

Well, Im glad you brought up the Ampules or Lorenzini. It is COMPLETELY different than a fish's lateral line. Entirely different organs. The lateral lines in fish almost always sense pressure differences, not electrical signals. Im not sure where that misinformation came from.

Again, there is NO evidence that electrical current causes HLLE. If there is (aside from anecdotal reports), Id love to see it.

JennM;611499 wrote: Well, as you know my experience is also anecdotal

I'll start by saying I've never seen corals or inverts die as a result of stray voltage.

What I have seen are instances of HLLE and parasitic outbreaks that occurred at the same time as stray voltage was present in the tank, and issues resolved themselves after the situation was corrected. In many cases with HLLE, diet was good, water quality was good (and had been being tested on an ongoing basis), and when symptoms persisted despite ruling out those issues, the next step was to look for faulty equipment. Same fish, same tank, same water, same diet, cleared up after the faulty device was replaced (usually heaters, but occasionally other devices). In those cases, carbon use did not change. That is to say, if they were using carbon, they continued to, and if they didn't they didn't (most do use carbon).

I can't explain the science. Maybe it's just a whole bunch of coincidences. Maybe it's not. I'll defer to others who might be able to explain the science, I can't. I just know what I've witnessed.

And whatever the cause(s) of HLLE, it does not always strike every fish in the affected tank. Usually I see it in tangs and angels, and other inhabitants can be perfectly fine. Once I've seen a tomato clown with HLLE (which reversed shortly after it came to us - no scars). I can't say as I've ever seen it in gobies or blennies, or any other fish we frequently keep. Mostly tangs and angels (and that one clown - her water quality was really bad, but I don't know much about other variables).

I really *would* like to know the exact cause(s) of the condition because it saddens me to have fish brought to me that are afflicted.

Jenn

Thanks for participating Jenn. However, there seems to be a lot of missing "links" in what youre saying. At least the way Im understanding it. As we have discussed a bunch, "stray voltage" is a misnomer, as voltage actually is not harmful at all. Current is. And, as our tanks arent grounded (for the most part), current is zero. So, how can this "stray voltage" be impairing fish?

In regards to your account, Im confused on one of your points. You say that a "faulty device" was leaking voltage, and once replaced, the symptoms subsided, with no other changes whatsoever. How can this be? The "faulty device" served a purpose, no? A heater, a powerhead, something. If it were replaced, the the function wouldve returned, no? Whether it be flow, temperature control, whatever the faulty device was INTENDED to do, correct?

Again, Im not "calling you to task", or personally attacking you, I just know you are a strong proponent of stray voltage as a villain, and hope to examine your point of view.

It is true that angels and tangs often show symptoms above and beyond other genera. However, I dont understand how this demonstrate anything, aside froma groups sensitivity. In fact, I see this as more than demonstration of it being a localized irritant than a metabolic abnormality (such as a biological reaction to electricity). I dont understand how electrical current could damage the tissue of certain fish, but not others. Whereas, if it were a contaminant, such as carbon fines, it would be quite plausible that certain fish would be more sensitive, than others. Just as many fish are more sensitive to certain mads, than others.

As an interesting FYI, in most angels, HLLE doesnt actually start near the lateral line. It is often seen as a small lesion near the opercular spike, as seen in this photo:

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[jmaneyapanda]

jmaneyapanda;610608 wrote:

First and foremost, please understand I am NOT saying that people shouldnt care about voltage in their tank. They should. It is a REAL and definitive danger <u>TO THE AQUARIST</u>. By all means, use GFCI outlets and grounding probes on tanks: I do. I do NOT discourage their use.

As I mentioned- dangerous to AQUARISTS? <u>DEFINITELY</u></em>. Dangerous to livestock? Until Im shown otherwise, I have to say no.

JeF4y;611543 wrote:

And I thank Blake for pointing out that the grounding probe is for HUMAN protection, not the fish or anything else...

?? Actually I said this in the first post.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

humahuma;611634 wrote: I just did a search for "stray voltage in aqauarium" on both google and yahoo.

Google=&gt;26,200 results
http://www.google.com/search?q=stray+voltage+in+aquarium&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a">stray voltage in aquarium - Google Search</a>

yahoo=&gt;33,100 results
[IMG]http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AniccdywaER0hdcXTtKpx8mbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-701-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF8&p=stray%20voltage%20in%20aquarium">http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AniccdywaER0hdcXTtKpx8mbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-701-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF8&p=stray%20voltage%20in%20aquarium</a>

Now all you have to do is just click and read. :) Good luck. Let us know what you find.[/QUOTE]

If its on google, its GOT to be true, right?

Actually, I have personally spoken to many of the current researchers in this field who all suggest that this causative agent has been grossly misinterpreted for a long time due to poor scientific study and the myth and folklore being passed on.

I would ask YOU to google or search or do whatever you can to SHOW me how "stray voltage" (for which we determined there was really not such a danger) causes destruction of fish tissue, along their lateral line. You cant, because it isnt there.

All the ANECDOTAL (which by definition is UNSCIENTIFIC) "data" almost always involved changing of multiple, sometimes several factors, negating any reasonable deductions. In fact, a much stronger case is currently being made that certain carbon fines are causing the issue. Certain carbon, from certain types of carbon shapes, in certain levels of skimming and other filtration.

So, ignoring the condescending tone of your previous posts, I challenge you to do the same. Fine me some evidence that SHOWS definitively, that HLLE is CAUSED by "stray voltage", whatever that is. Lets not even disuss the thousands, if not tens of thopusands of aquariums that have "stray voltage", whose fish show no symptoms.

 

[darcurr]

JeF4y;611649 wrote: Ugh... My point was simply directing people to the concept of what keeps them safe when lightning hits the car that they are in.

My use of the term "isolation" was that the person inside of the vehicle was not going to experience the charge experienced on the outside surface of the vehicle.

Does that clear it up?

Clear what up? I was simply agreeing with Lil Rob's point. For the record, cars are very unlikely to get struck by lightning because they are isolated from ground via their tires. If by some reason the car was struck, which means current is flowing since that is what lightning is, then Faraday's law would apply.

 

[jennm]

jmaneyapanda;611812 wrote:
In regards to your account, Im confused on one of your points. You say that a "faulty device" was leaking voltage, and once replaced, the symptoms subsided, with no other changes whatsoever. How can this be? The "faulty device" served a purpose, no? A heater, a powerhead, something. If it were replaced, the the function wouldve returned, no? Whether it be flow, temperature control, whatever the faulty device was INTENDED to do, correct?

I do understand the intent of the discussion - it's friendly

Here's what I've seen:

Over time, tang develops symptoms of HLLE: facial pitting, perhaps some fin erosion. Nowadays I go for a voltage check pretty early on but before I noticed a pattern, I only examined water quality and diet. Once I had ruled those out as possible "causes" (or suspected causes since neither has been proven or disproven), then I'd do a voltage check. If the water quality was consistently good over time, and diet was suitable for the tang/angel (ie plenty of preparations for herbivores), and voltage was found, and the defective device was replaced, the symptoms would subside. Nothing else was changed - diet stayed the same, water quality stayed consistently good. The only "change" that was made, was the faulty device was replaced.

Now, for clarity, I don't believe that voltage is the ONLY cause. I have seen cases of this when no voltage was present but the water quality was horrid and/or diet not appropriate - not enough "greens". And of course there have been instances where voltage was unknown - tank was not tested etc. I recently posted a thread with a sailfin that was brought to me 2 weeks ago that looked like h@99, and after just 5 days in my tank, he's improving dramatically (now after 2 weeks he's still improving daily). His water was dirty beyond dirty (nitrate) and I suspect he was only fed spirulina flakes (based on customer's purchase history of food in my shop - but I don't know if he bought other foods elsewhere, so that variable is still somewhat of a mystery). As I mentioned too, I did ask that customer about carbon use - he mentioned that he changed the carbon "regularly" but did not elaborate on how regular, was regular, and I don't know what brand of carbon, or how it was prepared. I don't discount the notion of carbon fines, but I haven't seen a pattern between carbon use and HLLE. We use carbon in just about every tank we maintain, and it's not a widespread problem. In fact, it's not a problem in tanks we maintain except in 2 cases where a faulty (Stealth) heater was identified as a possible cause when other factors were ruled out - and again, we replaced faulty devices, and problems went away.

But I digress...

In instances where the only problem I could find was a device leaking voltage, the symptoms reversed once the faulty device was removed and replaced.

Like I said, I can't tell you *why*, I can only relay what I've seen. Not just one time, but many times, over the last 10 years.

HLLE or not, we do agree that a device that isn't operating properly and safely, needs to be addressed, period.

Jenn

 

[ralph atl]

<div class="gc_ifarem_title">YouTube - Top Gear - Richard Hammond struck by lightning in car - BBC</div>


rubber tires are myth......if it can go through air, it can go through rubber

 

[humahuma]

jmaneyapanda,
Wow. All I did was tell you how I go about my search for some answers when I don't find it on a forum. It works most of the time for me so I was just passing it along to you. If you feel my advice on how to research a topic was condescending then I question your motives about this thread. NO, I'm not going to google or yahoo a search for this topic. You are the one who seems on creating this long thread about how everyone else is wrong. If you have personally spoken to researchers then post there articles and let everyone read for themselves.

HEY MAN, I hope you have a nice day!

 

[darcurr]

mysterybox;611940 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6XGKZxYxA">YouTube - Top Gear - Richard Hammond struck by lightning in car - BBC</a>


rubber tires are myth......if it can go through air, it can go through rubber[/QUOTE]

No doubt, but make no mistake, tires are resistive. Lightning, like all EMFs, takes the path of least resistance. Hence, a car sitting on tires is less likely to be struck than a car sitting on it's rims.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

humahuma;611612 wrote: jmaneyapanda,
Why don't you use google or yahoo and look up some articles about this subject. Then send the authors of those articles an e-mail regarding the specific questions you have that no one on here can answer. Then after they have responded you could pass that information on to us. That would be a great service to our club!

Well, I must confess I did not take this comment as a benign suggestion. But as a cynical stab.

As for my intentions, they are EXACTLY as I stated. To discuss.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

jmaneyapanda;611990 wrote: Well, I must confess I did not take this comment as a benign suggestion. But as a cynical stab.

As for my intentions, they are EXACTLY as I stated. To discuss.

This being said, if this was not your intent, then I apologize for the tone of my comment. For the record, I have googled and discussed this very issue with many authors. However, this seems to be a topic with has proliferated and is ripe with this topic that really has no basis.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

JennM;611869 wrote: I do understand the intent of the discussion - it's friendly

Here's what I've seen:

Over time, tang develops symptoms of HLLE: facial pitting, perhaps some fin erosion. Nowadays I go for a voltage check pretty early on but before I noticed a pattern, I only examined water quality and diet. Once I had ruled those out as possible "causes" (or suspected causes since neither has been proven or disproven), then I'd do a voltage check. If the water quality was consistently good over time, and diet was suitable for the tang/angel (ie plenty of preparations for herbivores), and voltage was found, and the defective device was replaced, the symptoms would subside. Nothing else was changed - diet stayed the same, water quality stayed consistently good. The only "change" that was made, was the faulty device was replaced.

Now, for clarity, I don't believe that voltage is the ONLY cause. I have seen cases of this when no voltage was present but the water quality was horrid and/or diet not appropriate - not enough "greens". And of course there have been instances where voltage was unknown - tank was not tested etc. I recently posted a thread with a sailfin that was brought to me 2 weeks ago that looked like h@99, and after just 5 days in my tank, he's improving dramatically (now after 2 weeks he's still improving daily). His water was dirty beyond dirty (nitrate) and I suspect he was only fed spirulina flakes (based on customer's purchase history of food in my shop - but I don't know if he bought other foods elsewhere, so that variable is still somewhat of a mystery). As I mentioned too, I did ask that customer about carbon use - he mentioned that he changed the carbon "regularly" but did not elaborate on how regular, was regular, and I don't know what brand of carbon, or how it was prepared. I don't discount the notion of carbon fines, but I haven't seen a pattern between carbon use and HLLE. We use carbon in just about every tank we maintain, and it's not a widespread problem. In fact, it's not a problem in tanks we maintain except in 2 cases where a faulty (Stealth) heater was identified as a possible cause when other factors were ruled out - and again, we replaced faulty devices, and problems went away.

But I digress...

In instances where the only problem I could find was a device leaking voltage, the symptoms reversed once the faulty device was removed and replaced.

Like I said, I can't tell you *why*, I can only relay what I've seen. Not just one time, but many times, over the last 10 years.

HLLE or not, we do agree that a device that isn't operating properly and safely, needs to be addressed, period.

Jenn

Jenn, I dont think Im making my point clear. "Stray voltage", as far as we see here, is a farce. And, if its not, then someone will have to explain it better to me. As explained by many, "voltage" is not a danger. So, the fact that we measure it in our tank is inconsequential. "Current", on the other hand, is a definitive and positive danger, but, through the physics of electricity. But....the fish cant be feeling current. They aren't grounded.

So, regardless of what youve seen (which I dont dispute), how can it be explained? How can voltage be harmful, if its not?

 

[ralph atl]

jmaneyapanda;612039 wrote: Jenn, I dont think Im making my point clear. "Stray voltage", as far as we see here, is a farce. And, if its not, then someone will have to explain it better to me. As explained by many, "voltage" is not a danger. So, the fact that we measure it in our tank is inconsequential. "Current", on the other hand, is a definitive and positive danger, but, through the physics of electricity. But....the fish cant be feeling current. They aren't grounded.

So, regardless of what youve seen (which I dont dispute), how can it be explained? How can voltage be harmful, if its not?

I assume that "stray voltage" is a term to mean "stray current", "short", "amps", "closed circuit", what have you.......

if the fish aren't grounded, than Jeremy, you are correct.......there could not be any closed circuit to run current(amps).

So, if we have a broken heater per se, that has caused the hot side to be submerged in the water, there would have to be an additional connection to ground (or neutral) via a metal rod, a person, a wire, something to complete the circuit......true....albeit a lighting fixture could do that if it had metal supports....

 

[jmaneyapanda]

mysterybox;612144 wrote: I assume that "stray voltage" is a term to mean "stray current", "short", "amps", "closed circuit", what have you.......

if the fish aren't grounded, than Jeremy, you are correct.......there could not be any closed circuit to run current(amps).

So, if we have a broken heater per se, that has caused the hot side to be submerged in the water, there would have to be an additional connection to ground (or neutral) via a metal rod, a person, a wire, something to complete the circuit......true....albeit a lighting fixture could do that if it had metal supports....

Yes, my point exactly. With the lack of ground WITHIN the aquarium (and on the inhabitants), how can this "voltage" be of harm? In the event of CURRENT running through, the livestock would be impaired, but, more importantly, the aquarists would be in serious danger, as Michael mentioned too. However, in the cases where "stray voltage" is compared to HLLE, etc, the aquarists arent in danger, and current presumably isnt going through the system (as the aquarists would certainly feel, and suffer, from it).

 

[jennm]

I have a question - and it's an honest question (because I'm not an electrician and I don't play one on TV...)

Most heaters I've seen don't have a third prong on the plug (not grounded). However, most pumps do (not all, but most).

It has been stated here, if I'm understanding it correctly, that using a volt meter to test, effectively grounds the tank and completes the circuit, enabling us to read how much voltage is now passing through the tank (to the ground).

So suppose we have a bad heater (2-pronged plug, no ground), that is shorting or whatnot (or as I put it, casting voltage). If there is another device submerged in the tank or sump that *does* have a ground plug (three pronged plug)... does that not do the same thing and ground the tank, and/or complete the circuit?

It might not (or as such, make a grounding probe redundant, unless none of the devices in the tank had a ground plug/third prong).

I am admittedly under-educated on all this... hence I'm just asking.

Jenn