Thoughts on stray voltage-confused
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Seriously? Why not? Why would you be ashamed for taking something which would have ended up in a landfill and using it? I understand being conflicted saying "SCORE!" at your neighbor's misfortune, but you did nothing wrong and I would have done the same thing (I own foreclosed homes and will continue to buy them)...
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Agreed. ANY stress will cause a disease to allow a foothold. it can be salinity, pH, ammonia, temp, anything, and stray voltage is certainly no different.
Lifestudent;575211 wrote: I humblely beg to differ. After battling ich for well over a year (and loosing too many fish to recall without twinging), I had 39 volts of stray voltage due to the induction of a flourescent fixture. After only changing out the fixture did both my voltage and ich problems to away.
While my experience is anecdotal, I believe the stress caused by such stray voltage was enough to stress or weaken the fishes' immune system and thereby allow them to succumb to disease and parasites that that would have normally been able to fend off.
Again, I dont doubt that stress can lead to susceptibility to illness. But the two HAVE TO BE independent. One is a pathogenic parasite, and one is an environmental condition. It would be like me saying my dog has fleas because its humid. The two may coincidentally go hand in hand, but either can be corrected independent of teh other, and it wont necessarily resolve the other problem at all.
As an anecdotal statement of my own, i would be willing to bet that is every ARC member tested voltage within their tanks we would get an enormous range, probably up to and including the 50 volt range. I once tested a tank that I could not "feel" anything in, and all inhabitants seemed fine, but it was 47 volts, if I recall properly. I dont see that voltage will cause a problem in and of itself, at all, except in big "doses". Just my opinion.
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A recent discussion of the topic of stray voltage with Jay Hemdal of the Toledo Zoo, and he stated:
"It isn't "stray" voltage; for the fish in the tank, they are not grounded, so with no potential, there is no current flow. I've seen tanks with live current in them - the fish are fine, but when you touch the water, you get shocked."
"It isn't "stray" voltage; for the fish in the tank, they are not grounded, so with no potential, there is no current flow. I've seen tanks with live current in them - the fish are fine, but when you touch the water, you get shocked."
It was explained to me that you won't feel volts, but you will feel amps. I'm not an electrician so maybe somebody else can expand on that. I do know I've been zinged when I had a hand in a tank and my elbow made contact with a metal light fixture above.
My service tech has suspected a problem if she had a cut or scratch on her hand and felt a tingle when said hand entered the water. As she put it, "I'm no voltage meter but something's up"... usually a test with a meter reveals a problem (but that more supports amps?) I don't know we don't typically test for amps. Sure enough... another Stealth heater was the cause.
I don't doubt that there are more tanks out there with voltage that their keepers are unaware of, at least until there's a problem and the issue is investigated. It seems that different fish react in different ways, and some appear to be more sensitive than others. Tangs and angels seem more sensitive than clowns - but I have seen clowns affected in some circumstances, and some not so much... some wrasses don't show any outward signs of stress, but I've seen others swim head first into a hole in a rock and get stuck there and die (I've seen that several times) - prior to their getting stuck, their keepers reported erratic behavior. Maybe interferes with the lateral line organ? That's what I tend to lean toward... but again, I'm not offering up any science, just my own observations.
I'm sure voltage is just one part of the picture too, there can be many other factors that contribute to stress levels.
Again, we're all just sharing opinions here. The one thing I'll state as a fact, in my mind, is that if a device is casting off voltage, it is damaged or defective and should be replaced, period. Not only for the safety of the tank inhabitants, but also for the safety of the aquarium's keeper.
Jenn
My service tech has suspected a problem if she had a cut or scratch on her hand and felt a tingle when said hand entered the water. As she put it, "I'm no voltage meter but something's up"... usually a test with a meter reveals a problem (but that more supports amps?) I don't know we don't typically test for amps. Sure enough... another Stealth heater was the cause.
I don't doubt that there are more tanks out there with voltage that their keepers are unaware of, at least until there's a problem and the issue is investigated. It seems that different fish react in different ways, and some appear to be more sensitive than others. Tangs and angels seem more sensitive than clowns - but I have seen clowns affected in some circumstances, and some not so much... some wrasses don't show any outward signs of stress, but I've seen others swim head first into a hole in a rock and get stuck there and die (I've seen that several times) - prior to their getting stuck, their keepers reported erratic behavior. Maybe interferes with the lateral line organ? That's what I tend to lean toward... but again, I'm not offering up any science, just my own observations.
I'm sure voltage is just one part of the picture too, there can be many other factors that contribute to stress levels.
Again, we're all just sharing opinions here. The one thing I'll state as a fact, in my mind, is that if a device is casting off voltage, it is damaged or defective and should be replaced, period. Not only for the safety of the tank inhabitants, but also for the safety of the aquarium's keeper.
Jenn
rjrgroup;575316 wrote: Just check my voltage due to this thread and it was 50+/-. Each item in my tank seems to have a volt or two but my skimmer pump and heater were putting out over 45 volts together.
This is been my experience. I don't have a single item that isn't throwing off more than 10 volts, and all of my equipment has been tested in different settings using different grounds. All of my equpment (save the salvaged heater) is brand new.
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Here is what I take 'voltage' to mean...trying to bring myself back to my physics (physucks) classes...
Voltage in itself isn't really a big deal. It is a measurment of the potential difference between two sources. It is based on electrons (negatively charged) and their desire to flow to a high entropy (chaos) or a positive charge.
The key is current and resistance. There can exist a potential difference in space of an electrons without a problem, happens all the time. Once a path is provided for for that electron to move down its electrical gradient you have a problem. Voltage becomes defined by the amount of resistance on that path (R, ohms), and the quantity of electrons that are travelling the path (I, current-deadly).
We get V = IR, or better to think of it as I=V/R
Now imagine you have a tank of distilled water, with not a single free floating ion in it (imposible because H2O will dissociate to some extent, but just go with it). Imagine you put a probe in that tank of distilled water and a probe in an electrical source. Will you measure voltage? maybe. Will you get a current? Probably not. The reason is there are no ions present to provide a path for the 'current' of electrons. A resistance of 0 implies complete absence of particules, nothing to move electrons if you will (I know this is a gross simplification, but it works).
Of course, we run salt water tanks. saltwater is a great conductor of electricity there is because of sodium's valent electron shell (Na has more protons than electrons, so it has a +1 charge); it can accept electrons, and pass them off to Cl/H20.
To make a long story short...I haven't thought out this whole thing yet but I suspect there are a ton of folks out there that if they measured their tanks, would find 'voltage' above 40. What their current (there is no debate, deadly to fish and humans alike) and resistance (determinant of current) measurements MAY be a different story. (Emphasize MAY because I suspect our Rs Vs and Is will all be insignificantly different)
Anyway, this is why amps is important. An amp is a measure of the actual flow of electrons. A volt just means that the electrons want to flow someplace.
I will think about this more, and how it could be affecting my tank/fish.
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In the mean time, someone will have to tell me why every tank appliance I own shows a voltage of 10-40 and if I should be concerned
my total voltage is around 40.
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rjrgroup;575316 wrote: Just check my voltage due to this thread and it was 50+/-. Each item in my tank seems to have a volt or two but my skimmer pump and heater were putting out over 45 volts together.
Very much my point. Here, at 45 volts, you certainly have a tank full of dead fish and corals, no? Im guessing not, since you had no idea of the current until checking, based on no symptoms, but instead a random thread.
Again, while I feel that aquariums should not have such extraneous current going through them, but I do not think it is the menace to our livestock that it is painted to be. I feel it is FAR more dangerous for the aquarists themselves.
rjrgroup;575316 wrote: Just check my voltage due to this thread and it was 50+/-. Each item in my tank seems to have a volt or two but my skimmer pump and heater were putting out over 45 volts together.
That is not normal. I just checked my 300/150 gallon system and I have stray voltage of .5v.
Most of the time is it either a malfunctioning heater or a powerhead. But if it is not equipment, then I would look at the electrical outlets themselves for improper ground wiring. There is a small device available at any hardware/home depot that will tell you if your outlet is wired correctly. Has a 3 prong plug on one side and an orange/red light combo on the other. The way the lights light up tells you if the outlet is wired correctly. Cheap to buy, about $5.
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