Stray voltage DISCUSSION note- I want to discuss, not rant and attack!!! :)
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Correct. The ground of a grounded appliance grounds that device, not everything it touches. So, if the device has the hot wire and the ground were exposed to the tank, the current would be traveling, and you would not be able to put your hand in the tank without getting jolted.
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One data point we are missing in the discussion is you do not need a "ground" for current to flow, all you need is a complete "circuit" to and from the power source.
You need 2 conductors to make a circuit. On typical household items, these are the 2 flat prongs in the "plug". The smaller prong is the "hot" and the wider one the "neutral" and the optional round prong is the ground. Under normal working conditions, the ground wire carries zero current while the hot and neutral carry the current to and fro.
If you notice, both the neutral and hot wires are present (under the water) on a typical electrical appliance (heater, powerhead, etc.). This means the potential exists to have a completed circuit with current flowing through the water in the tank (between hot and neutral) that MAY not trip your breaker or GFCI.
If the hot and neutral wires are exposed under water from either the same or separate appliances. You will notice that in this case, a ground is not needed to have current flow. Also of interest is in this case is that the circuit breaker would not trip in most cases due to the relatively poor conductor water makes (even salt water). Even more troubling is the fact that since the current is flowing between neutral and hot, a GFCI WILL NOT TRIP (unless the current flow is between appliances plugged into different GFCIs). This is why you can get a tingle without tripping a GFCI.
Why you should have a grounding probe
NOW, take that same situation with a tank WITH a grounding probe and as soon as the hot wire is exposed to the tank water, some of the current will flow through the ground probe and trip the GFCI within milliseconds protecting you and your fish. This is why I run GFCI on ALL circuits near my tanks and run a grounding probe. Grounding probes CANNOT hurt your tank or fish or provide a current path as long as you use GFCIs on everything (you do, don't you!).
Sorry, I do not have any input on the HLLE discussion other than I anecdotally believe that diet is more to cause than electrical (I have no proof of this statement either).
You need 2 conductors to make a circuit. On typical household items, these are the 2 flat prongs in the "plug". The smaller prong is the "hot" and the wider one the "neutral" and the optional round prong is the ground. Under normal working conditions, the ground wire carries zero current while the hot and neutral carry the current to and fro.
If you notice, both the neutral and hot wires are present (under the water) on a typical electrical appliance (heater, powerhead, etc.). This means the potential exists to have a completed circuit with current flowing through the water in the tank (between hot and neutral) that MAY not trip your breaker or GFCI.
If the hot and neutral wires are exposed under water from either the same or separate appliances. You will notice that in this case, a ground is not needed to have current flow. Also of interest is in this case is that the circuit breaker would not trip in most cases due to the relatively poor conductor water makes (even salt water). Even more troubling is the fact that since the current is flowing between neutral and hot, a GFCI WILL NOT TRIP (unless the current flow is between appliances plugged into different GFCIs). This is why you can get a tingle without tripping a GFCI.
Why you should have a grounding probe
NOW, take that same situation with a tank WITH a grounding probe and as soon as the hot wire is exposed to the tank water, some of the current will flow through the ground probe and trip the GFCI within milliseconds protecting you and your fish. This is why I run GFCI on ALL circuits near my tanks and run a grounding probe. Grounding probes CANNOT hurt your tank or fish or provide a current path as long as you use GFCIs on everything (you do, don't you!).
Sorry, I do not have any input on the HLLE discussion other than I anecdotally believe that diet is more to cause than electrical (I have no proof of this statement either).
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Schwaggs;612375 wrote: One data point we are missing in the discussion is you do not need a "ground" for current to flow, all you need is a complete "circuit" to and from the power source.
You need 2 conductors to make a circuit. On typical household items, these are the 2 flat prongs in the "plug". The smaller prong is the "hot" and the wider one the "neutral" and the optional round prong is the ground. Under normal working conditions, the ground wire carries zero current while the hot and neutral carry the current to and fro.
If you notice, both the neutral and hot wires are present (under the water) on a typical electrical appliance (heater, powerhead, etc.). This means the potential exists to have a completed circuit with current flowing through the water in the tank (between hot and neutral) that MAY not trip your breaker or GFCI.
If the hot and neutral wires are exposed under water from either the same or separate appliances. You will notice that in this case, a ground is not needed to have current flow. Also of interest is in this case is that the circuit breaker would not trip in most cases due to the relatively poor conductor water makes (even salt water). Even more troubling is the fact that since the current is flowing between neutral and hot, a GFCI WILL NOT TRIP (unless the current flow is between appliances plugged into different GFCIs). This is why you can get a tingle without tripping a GFCI.
Why you should have a grounding probe
NOW, take that same situation with a tank WITH a grounding probe and as soon as the hot wire is exposed to the tank water, some of the current will flow through the ground probe and trip the GFCI within milliseconds protecting you and your fish. This is why I run GFCI on ALL circuits near my tanks and run a grounding probe. Grounding probes CANNOT hurt your tank or fish or provide a current path as long as you use GFCIs on everything (you do, don't you!).
Sorry, I do not have any input on the HLLE discussion other than I anecdotally believe that diet is more to cause than electrical (I have no proof of this statement either).
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking, but since I don't have much electrical knowledge, I wasn't sure if it was right.
So, in other words, if the two wires are exposed in some way or another, the water in the tank will be energized whether it is grounded or not, right?? And since (a) water is a poor conductor and (b) the majority of the current will be running between the hot and neutral wires (I believe electricity will want to travel the shortest distance possible) we only detect a small amount of current.
Is this accurate?
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I would imagine if one were to cut the plug off of their toaster, plug it into the wall, and stick the hot end into their tank, it would probably kill the fish even if the tank isn't grounded (assuming no GFCI, of course). Right?
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The current will travel all paths to ground be it the neutral wire, ground wire or your body. To what extent the current flows through each is based on the resistance to the flow of electrons in the particular path to ground. Electricity will follow any and all paths to ground (it will follow more than one simultaneously). The lowest resistance will carry the most current while paths with more resistance will carry less.
If current has a path through salt water and a path through copper wire, more current will flow through copper than salt water since copper has lower resistance than salt water. Distance is less of a factor than resistance however. The further current has to flow through a item, the more resistance will be encountered. In other words, 2 feet of copper wire has twice the resistance to the flow of electrons as 1 foot. 10 miles of copper wire may offer more resitance than 2 feet of salt water (this is meant as a representation, not fact) even though copper is a better conductor than salt water.
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Kinda like I wAs talking about doing the test with saltwater an then your rodi water.
Schwaggs;612375 wrote: One data point we are missing in the discussion is you do not need a "ground" for current to flow, all you need is a complete "circuit" to and from the power source.
You need 2 conductors to make a circuit. On typical household items, these are the 2 flat prongs in the "plug". The smaller prong is the "hot" and the wider one the "neutral" and the optional round prong is the ground. Under normal working conditions, the ground wire carries zero current while the hot and neutral carry the current to and fro.
If you notice, both the neutral and hot wires are present (under the water) on a typical electrical appliance (heater, powerhead, etc.). This means the potential exists to have a completed circuit with current flowing through the water in the tank (between hot and neutral) that MAY not trip your breaker or GFCI.
If the hot and neutral wires are exposed under water from either the same or separate appliances. You will notice that in this case, a ground is not needed to have current flow. Also of interest is in this case is that the circuit breaker would not trip in most cases due to the relatively poor conductor water makes (even salt water). Even more troubling is the fact that since the current is flowing between neutral and hot, a GFCI WILL NOT TRIP (unless the current flow is between appliances plugged into different GFCIs). This is why you can get a tingle without tripping a GFCI.
Why you should have a grounding probe
NOW, take that same situation with a tank WITH a grounding probe and as soon as the hot wire is exposed to the tank water, some of the current will flow through the ground probe and trip the GFCI within milliseconds protecting you and your fish. This is why I run GFCI on ALL circuits near my tanks and run a grounding probe. Grounding probes CANNOT hurt your tank or fish or provide a current path as long as you use GFCIs on everything (you do, don't you!).
Sorry, I do not have any input on the HLLE discussion other than I anecdotally believe that diet is more to cause than electrical (I have no proof of this statement either).
So, in effect, the tank is part of the complete circuit that, if it were not involving the tank, we'd call a "loaded neutral"... interesting.
Correct. Distilled/deionized water is an excellent insulator.
I know, I know, just does not sound right, but it's true.
Years ago, we used to immerse the high voltage power supply (~35 KVolts) of a laser in DI water to keep it from arcing. Also used DI water to cool the laser for the same reason.
I know, I know, just does not sound right, but it's true.
Years ago, we used to immerse the high voltage power supply (~35 KVolts) of a laser in DI water to keep it from arcing. Also used DI water to cool the laser for the same reason.
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Yep it would make a pretty good insulator. But any insulator can be over come with the proper voltage. Just gotta give it enough umph I'd say.
In practicle terms, water will absorb CO2 if exposed to the air. This will spontaneously form carbonic acid, which is an ion, and increase conductivity.
Ask me how I know...
Edit: Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html</a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: ]I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Edit: oops
Ask me how I know...
Edit: Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html</a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Thoughts?
Edit: ]I hit edit by mistake somehow, anyway what I wanted to post was...
Back to the OP's original question, is it possible that 'stray' voltage cause a decline in fish health and/or cause LLE/LLD.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and followed several discussions on the matter. I reseached this a bit and came across the following article.
[IMG]http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-measure-fish-condition.html"><span style="color: #22229c">http://www.ipgdx.com/phase-angle-mea...condition.html</span></a>
Phase angle measurements compare the resistance (or impedance) of tissue exposed to both DC and AC potentials. When there is a high relative difference the phase angle is high, and when lesser difference the phase angle is low. These measurements have been used for years on humans and lab specimens, but only recently on live fish.
It is also known that electrical potentials may increase the permeability of tissue by ions. This at least offers the possibility that the presence of electrical potentials MAY affect fish health.
Edit: oops
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I'm still rather confused about whether a piece of faulty equipment or exposed wires are able to charge the water in an ungrounded aquarium.
Check this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8</a>
It shows a guy drawing an arc from a helicopter. That's about as ungrounded as you can get.
When you contact a voltage (ac/dc doesn't matter) if current cannot pass (IE you do not make a complete circuit), you will be at the same potential/voltage as the source. When the potential is high enough you will feel a shock (ac/dc doesn't matter) even if no current flows. I've noticed this with birds on power lines. The small stuff around the house has birds on the wire. The bigger stuff (which is higher voltage) the birds sit on the structure, not the wire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8</a>
It shows a guy drawing an arc from a helicopter. That's about as ungrounded as you can get.
When you contact a voltage (ac/dc doesn't matter) if current cannot pass (IE you do not make a complete circuit), you will be at the same potential/voltage as the source. When the potential is high enough you will feel a shock (ac/dc doesn't matter) even if no current flows. I've noticed this with birds on power lines. The small stuff around the house has birds on the wire. The bigger stuff (which is higher voltage) the birds sit on the structure, not the wire.
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