Cyano.

OceanDeep85;980511 wrote: 1.) Seeking input from those who've used Chemiclean since I know nothing about it. Making every available effort to remove it through my behavioral changes and natural prevention/removal

I've used both. As well as many other products that have come, gone and sit gathering dust on the shelf. The Ultralife product is every bit as effective, but is less volatile. With Chemiclean you MUST do a 20% water change (or greater) within 48 hours of treatment. With Ultralife, it's recommended but your tank won't crash if you don't. I have used the Ultralife product on large tanks, small tanks and with sensitive creatures like Tridacnid clams and finicky SPS with no repercussions.

I will reiterate that *any* chemical 'fix' should be a last resort after all the causes or potential causes have been identified and remedied. Otherwise you will just keep repeating the same thing over and over without solving the problem.



2.) like I said, I've made observations that a. Cyano is on a rock or substrate, b) my turbo seeks it out, c) my turbo slithers over it and hangs out for a bit, d) turbo slithers away, e) Cyano is gone, rock is clean. Not making any statements on the matter, just making an observation and seeing if anyone else knows anything about it. I've actually heard that Cyano will kill snails on contact, so, Cyano is probably another one of those mythical reef things that everyone knows everything, and nothing, about.

The snail is moving it. It's either pushing it off someplace else or it's becoming suspended in the water column and will settle elsewhere. Nothing eats cyano. Which brings me to something I omitted to mention before - higher flow tends to prevent it from settling, so if you see it accumulating in a particular spot, change up the flow pattern and it will help prevent it from accumulating. Flow alone, is not a cure, however.

3.) Haven't had time to do manual removal- yet- the shorter photo-period and water changes seem to have already made a sizable dent in the presence of the stuff.

The water changes will help export the nutrients that are feeding it so that's good. Shorter photoperiod makes for less time for it to grow, which is also good.

If you look closely, there is likely little, to none, visible, when your lights first come on. By the time your photoperiod is nearly over, it will be at its most dense. When the lights go off, it dies back, and during the lit period, it regrows. The best time for manual removal is at the end of your photoperiod when it's thickest, then you can remove more if it in a shorter time.

4.) No clue what phosphate level my tank is at. Nitrates are below 10ppm through water changes and green algaes consuming nitrates in water column. Have no new livestock to report, just the damsel, snail, two blue leg hermits.

It would be a good idea to get a phosphate test kit (I am partical to Seachem - most are good but avoid API, you might as well flush your money down the toilet). Keep an eye on that. 10 PPM isn't horrible, but it's higher than it should be, and there is likely more present, but being bound up by algae and cyano. Still - given the water quality issues you were having just 4 weeks ago, that's a lot better. Also, with the recycled rock you had, if it had become a nutrient sink, there still may be phosphates leaching out. Without a baseline test you won't know what it was to begin with but starting to test now and going forward, the data will be helpful.

5.) Temperature is a suprisingly consistent 78, both day and night. I check regularly with a brewer's thermometer (made for precisely measuring the temperature of brewing beer) and a stick-on thermometer on tank glass. Both read 78 every time without fail.

Trust the glass thermometer. The sticker is only good for telling the temperature on the outside of the glass. They happen to agree now, but my $1 says that unless you keep your house at 78 in the winter, as the cooler weather sets in, that sticker will make you think the tank is cold.

6.) Damsel gets less than a pinch (3, maybe 4 granules) of Instant Ocean Omnivore once every 2 or 3 days. If not given IO Omnivore, it gets a tiny bit of frozen brine every 2 or 3 days. What is not eaten by damsel is readily consumed by hermits. It's actually fun to watch hermits come from nowhere with lightning speed to scarf it up.

Good - carry on with that.

7.) I still am waiting on a definitive answer regarding the impact of the chemicals on the bio-filter. Most folks here are well aware of my insane struggle to establish a good bio-filter and I REALLY want to avoid damaging that at all costs. Everything in the tank seems happy as could be and other than the algae issue, ammo-0, nitrite-0, Nitrate <10ppm

I guess it depends on what/whom you consider definitive. I threw in my 2 cents... based on direct experience.


8.) Photo-period WAS, in hindsight, insane. It's a 12" deep tank under 2 T5 HO lamps and deep blue wavelength LED accents. I currently have it set at 2p - 11p versus the 8:30a-11:00p from before. Tank also does not receive ANY direct sunlight as it is in an alcove in the living room away from a window. Even if blinds were fully open, it would only receive ambient sunlight.

Everybody wants to view their tank. I wouldn't say it was 'insane' - more like a little longer than it needed to be. Happens all the time. If nobody is home during the day, you can also divide your total photoperiod in 2, so you can have light in the morning, and in the evening (for example) if that is when you're home to observe. Plenty of folks do that and it works, the creatures grow accustomed to it and during the day they aren't in the dark when there's ambient room light.

As for the skimmer. AVOID a SeaClone, as tempting as it might be. That's another case of you might as well just flush the money down the toilet. It can be tricky to get a skimmer that isn't too big for a 10 but if you do manage to get something like a Reef Octopus HOB, it will easily go with you up to a 40 gallon, so you only have to spend good money, one time. Once you go larger than that, your best bet would be to go with a reef-ready tank with a sump, so that would necessitate a larger skimmer anyway, either in-sump or in-line. So with your existing setup, a good HOB would be a one-time purchase with room to grow later on.

Jenn
 
I can +1 Jenn's suggestion to use UltraLife Red Slime remover. I was wrong in thinking I was using Chemiclean, just saw the open box on my desk. I did some syphoning and there is no new cyano today in the spots where normally under my MH lights. I'm sure it could still come back but that's a good sign.

Skimmer going nuts though... just have to take the cup off
 
as a last resort^^

It's really not that hard to beat. Chemical removal is just a substitute for manual removal, it doesn't actually solve any of the underlying issues. Better to take care of them dealing with cyano, than to let the issue stick around resulting in worse problems like GHA
 
JDavid;980789 wrote: as a last resort^^

It's really not that hard to beat. Chemical removal is just a substitute for manual removal, it doesn't actually solve any of the underlying issues. Better to take care of them dealing with cyano, than to let the issue stick around resulting in worse problems like GHA


I had two spots that I just couldn't clear. I have no other signs of phosphates as far as algaes, everything clear and covered in coraline... Got it looking pretty good after battling for a couple months. It's a lower flow spot but now that I'm feeding an appropriate amount I'm hoping there won't be as much food / detritus build up there.
 
Yeah I know what you mean about the problem spots in the sand bed. Can't exactly blast the sandbed with a powerhead either
 
some interesting commentary on the flow. I've noticed that the Cyano is really only in one corner of the tank. In talking to Josh before, we both pretty much realized I need to upgrade to an appropriate wavemaker or wave makers since clearly I do have a low flow spot in the tank that the cyano is loving.

Josh made some recommendations on appropriate, cost effective, wave makers for smaller tanks but I forget what they were. Would love some suggestions. It'll only become more important as I add more corals.
 
I suggested the koralia nano (425 gph?) for a budget powerhead.

Flow could be part of the problem
 
JDavid;980820 wrote: I suggested the koralia nano (425 gph?) for a budget powerhead.

Flow could be part of the problem

Ocean, I've got 2 of these koralia nano's that i was thinking about posting here shortly with some other equipment I would like to clear out. I recently upgraded during the jabeo group buy, but used the koralia's for about 8 months. If you are in need of 1, you can come by and have it. Im in the sandy springs/buckhead area. let me know.
 
BTW Ocean I have a koralia smartwave laying around that I have no use for anymore; willing to let it go for 30$ its very lightly used (think less than a half a year) and it can be used with any regular AC powerheads.

Looks like this:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/tiMAAOSwEK9TzmaW/$_0.JPG" alt="" />

I think it can support up to like 16 powerheads or something if you put a splitter on each of the two pigtails, has 2-3 different modes; I used it prior to buying vortechs.
 
I would avoid using chemiclean or any other chemical cyano removers. I have used chemiclean twice in the past. While it did eradicate the cyano it was shortly replaced by another form of algae. Once with this awful green stuff and once with dinos. If you think about it you are killing the cyano but whatever caused it is still there, so something else will just take advantage of the now available nutrients and take off. And it will most likely be worse than the cyano was. Just focus on manual removal, water changes, and keeping your nutrients in check and it will go away. It wont be as fast as it would be using the chemical method but usually things that happen fast in this hobby will usually not turn out too well.
 
Hey, friends.

Ok, so, it's DEFINITELY a flow and lighting issue. Without a doubt. The shortened photo-period has already helped tremendously and now it's really only an issue where I clearly have a very low flow area in one corner of the tank
 
I think that low flow as a cause of cyano is a myth. I have had cyano growing on LR 6 inches from the full output of a Vortech MP60, which flows about 9,500 gph. Cyano grows where it can get a foothold. An area of lower flow may provide that, but lack of flow is not the cause of the cyano. Flow just pushes cyano around, and has nothing to do with the availability of the nutrients that allows the cyano to grow, which is in the water column to start with.

It will just find somewhere else to grow.
 
Acroholic;981007 wrote: I think that low flow as a cause of cyano is a myth. I have had cyano growing on LR 6 inches from the full output of a Vortech MP60, which flows about 9,500 gph. Cyano grows where it can get a foothold. An area of lower flow may provide that, but lack of flow is not the cause of the cyano. Flow just pushes cyano around, and has nothing to do with the availability of the nutrients that allows the cyano to grow, which is in the water column to start with.

It will just find somewhere else to grow.

probably true, but nonetheless, it's definitely made it clear where dead spots and/or low flow is in my tank, so just like the skimmer, probably something smart to invest in out of the gate. Especially if members have equipment around that they would like to get rid of.
 
MiaHaley;980827 wrote: Ocean, I've got 2 of these koralia nano's that i was thinking about posting here shortly with some other equipment I would like to clear out. I recently upgraded during the jabeo group buy, but used the koralia's for about 8 months. If you are in need of 1, you can come by and have it. Im in the sandy springs/buckhead area. let me know.


PM sent.

But basically.. umm.. Heck. Yes. I'll take both if you want to get rid of them. THANK YOU! YOU TOO KIL.. thanks to everyone here.
 
OceanDeep85;981012 wrote: probably true, but nonetheless, it's definitely made it clear where dead spots and/or low flow is in my tank, so just like the skimmer, probably something smart to invest in out of the gate. Especially if members have equipment around that they would like to get rid of.

Agreed. Just remember to keep in your perspective that low flow areas of your tank are not necessarily a bad thing. Many corals do not respond well to high flow and have not evolved to be in high flow. The areas of different flow in a tank is what allows you to keep some corals there, while not others. In a reef, you might have SPS where the flow is high, but put an acan in an area of medium to lower flow. Or an SPS in high flow, and a Euphyllia in medium flow, etc. Having high flow everywhere is not necessarily a good thing, based on what corals you want to keep, in other words.

I have high flow almost everywhere in my 465, but that is because the tank is 99% SPS. My 100 LPS/Softy tank has no high flow in it, only medium to low because of the corals I keep. I have a touch of cyano that shows up in one or two spots once in a while, but it is not problematic enough to do anything chemically about other than siphoning it out once every few months.

Cyano, outside of plague proportions, is not hard to deal with.
 
Acroholic;981021 wrote: Agreed. Just remember to keep in your perspective that low flow areas of your tank are not necessarily a bad thing. Many corals do not respond well to high flow and have not evolved to be in high flow. The areas of different flow in a tank is what allows you to keep some corals there, while not others. In a reef, you might have SPS where the flow is high, but put an acan in an area of medium to lower flow. Or an SPS in high flow, and a Euphyllia in medium flow, etc. Having high flow everywhere is not necessarily a good thing, based on what corals you want to keep, in other words.

I have high flow almost everywhere in my 465, but that is because the tank is 99% SPS. My 100 LPS/Softy tank has no high flow in it, only medium to low because of the corals I keep. I have a touch of cyano that shows up in one or two spots once in a while, but it is not problematic enough to do anything chemically about other than siphoning it out once every few months.

Cyano, outside of plague proportions, is not hard to deal with.


I have GOT to come by and see this setup some time.

Yeah, I mean, I've come to appreciate that 'flow' is all relative. I wish there was a way that more experienced reefers could define what it actually means. When I first started, I had my powerhead on FULL BLAST thinking that 'flow' meant that the water had to be rushing by.. when in reality, as I understand it, it just equates to water movement in differing speeds. I thought at first the rule was, 'there's never too much' and it should really be hauling butt to be considered 'flow'

Remember that my ultimate goal is a 40 breeder mixed reef. at least, for the next few years, until I can really get settled and go big.
 
OceanDeep85;981042 wrote: I have GOT to come by and see this setup some time.

Yeah, I mean, I've come to appreciate that 'flow' is all relative. I wish there was a way that more experienced reefers could define what it actually means. When I first started, I had my powerhead on FULL BLAST thinking that 'flow' meant that the water had to be rushing by.. when in reality, as I understand it, it just equates to water movement in differing speeds. I thought at first the rule was, 'there's never too much' and it should really be hauling butt to be considered 'flow'

Remember that my ultimate goal is a 40 breeder mixed reef. at least, for the next few years, until I can really get settled and go big.

Flow rates really are relative. It is one of those type things like "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." I saw what too much flow is when I saw the skin of an SPS blow off from too much flow from a Tunze 6105 pump. As your experience base grows, you will get a feel for it. Placing corals in the right combination of flow and light is a skill that comes in time. At least that is how it went with me.

Again, with my 465, I made the choice to have an absurdly high amount of in-tank flow. I could probably do fine with four MP60s, not six. But, the advantage of this much flow in a bare bottom tank is a spotless tank bottom that never, ever needs siphoning of organic detritus. It all goes in the sump.

The trade off may be an inability to keep certain species of coral, even some SPS.
 
David, for clarity, I agree with you - low flow does not *cause* cyano, low flow *enables* it to settle. Apologies if I wasn't clear about that.

IMO the wavemaker for a 10-gallon is overkill. The Koralia 425 (or even the 240) should be ample flow if it's placed right.

And I forgot to address the skimmate thickness issue. I recommend 'tea-coloured' skimmate - wet will remove more organics over time.

Jenn
 
JennM;981151 wrote: David, for clarity, I agree with you - low flow does not *cause* cyano, low flow *enables* it to settle. Apologies if I wasn't clear about that.

IMO the wavemaker for a 10-gallon is overkill. The Koralia 425 (or even the 240) should be ample flow if it's placed right.

And I forgot to address the skimmate thickness issue. I recommend 'tea-coloured' skimmate - wet will remove more organics over time.

Jenn

+1 a wavemakers not absolutely necessary but non-linear flow is a much healthier approach. Otherwise the flow is always uni-directional and never-changing, which is not a big deal but is an eyesore and causes corals to also grow in one direction sometimes. I mainly used it to give my fish a workout, its rather boring watching them swim in the same one spot all day long because they have found a spot that they can just hang out at. I got my vortech and I could not believe the difference in the behavior of how the fish swim around the tank in comparison to something like a few koralias blowing in the same direction all day long.

On the cyano, really it all goes back to the nutrients being in place. While high flow does help keep it from settling its more about the deadspots because the deadspots are likely the places that your getting your nutrients from. If the junk is settling in a corner and your either not siphoning it after every feeding or dont have enough of a clean up crew to eat it all its going to turn into nitrates/phosphates. High flow will keep that from settling and picks it up so that the filters/skimmer can take it out.
 
kilralpine;981183 wrote: +1 a wavemakers not absolutely necessary but non-linear flow is a much healthier approach. Otherwise the flow is always uni-directional and never-changing, which is not a big deal but is an eyesore and causes corals to also grow in one direction sometimes. I mainly used it to give my fish a workout, its rather boring watching them swim in the same one spot all day long because they have found a spot that they can just hang out at. I got my vortech and I could not believe the difference in the behavior of how the fish swim around the tank in comparison to something like a few koralias blowing in the same direction all day long.

On the cyano, really it all goes back to the nutrients being in place. While high flow does help keep it from settling its more about the deadspots because the deadspots are likely the places that your getting your nutrients from. If the junk is settling in a corner and your either not siphoning it after every feeding or dont have enough of a clean up crew to eat it all its going to turn into nitrates/phosphates. High flow will keep that from settling and picks it up so that the filters/skimmer can take it out.


yeah. I suspect I'll be singing a much different tune after I get the skimmer hooked up this weekend. Bulkrate (Jeremy) is supposed to be stopping by to hang out for a bit tomorrow evening, so, maybe with his experienced eye, he can translate further.

Still, whether the issue of flow is the matter here or not- I still think, while folks are being so generous and helping me out by letting me purchase equipment I'll probably end up needing anyway, I'm going to pick it up and learn how to use it appropriately while those same members are willing to help me improve my skillset in using them.
 
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