Fish Store More closing sale
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You know what all, your right. I dont know much about this hobby thats why im here. Trying to learn as much as I can. All I was trying to do was figure out why Bobby at CBA was upset with the fact that we buy online from out of state business. I simply told him what I thought. And tried to offer suggestions to help the problem. And he accused me of "killing LFS's" just because im a smart consumer. I didnt appreciate it one bit. Then a member trys to justify the high prices of LFS's by telling us to look at power and water bills when the "etailers" have the same problem. I throw a little, lol, joke at him and he also jumped my S***. Whats wrong here? It seems like in every other thread there is a few people going at it about something as stupid as opinions. I think Im just going to bow out of the Atlanta Reef Club. Thank you all for the help over the last year well it would have been a year tomorrow lol. Happy reefing:up:
What do you mean erroneous? The fish was still in the bag, It was dead when I got back home, drove all the way back, to show you guys. The first answer I got was, "This fish has been with us for over 3 months, we don't do refunds on fish that has been with us for more than 2 weeks".
That's fine, if that was the policy, what I am saying is just don't be surprised when customers don't return.
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I like the LFS, I also like e-tailers. However, I'm not sure if your example here proves much. Yes, if you were to compare the cost of obtaining one specific item and then selling it for a huge markup, then the difference would definitely look skewed. As with running any business that sells inventory, there's costs involved. Do I need to spell it out? If all you did was buy that fish, kept it in that bag for weeks until someone picks it up, then I agree, that mark up is ridiculous. For that type of work, I would expect smaller markup like electronics; but there is so much more involved in this hobby.
Anyway... so it seems like the problem here is the power buys make the LFS's uneasy. I can see why that is... but that's the power of groups and the purpose of these buys; granted some of the discounts are really crappy but in the end we save on shipping and overall we do pay less.
I'm not sure if this is feasible but would it be possible for you guys to beat us to the punch? Can all the LFS in the area combine their orders and do a B2B group buy then pass the savings to us? Just thinking aloud here... maybe the way to beat the competition and the etailers is to have solutions that are outside of the box.
I don't know... there is definitely a lot of value having great LFS's in the area. I actually picked where I am living now based on the proximity to three, now two of the better LFS's in the area. Maybe that makes me lame but the one thing I've yet to complain about is spending the gas to check out these stores when I have time. You really can't beat the service at these stores which is something I don't get from the internet even if I'm a huge fan of etailing.
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I have been witnessing this hobby dying a slow death here in Atlanta for some time now, not really knowing whats at the root of all the hostility towards local fish stores?
And why a growing number of hobbyists would rather pay more for a fish or coral online, then to let the local stores get their filthy hands on their money.(?)
Why is it that in spite of shipping costs and the fact that you must spend box pick up time and deal with minimum orders still seems preferable to doing business with local stores?
Is it that newbies believe what they read ? that Flame Angels only cost the dealer five bucks?( they cost 25 if you buy multiples and we sell them for 49.)
IO Salt costs dealers 8.25---7.50 (when on sale) and we sell it for 10.99.
Try paying 14K rent +40K salaries and 10K water and power per month on those mark ups and you too can go out of business in Buckhead.
Even online store like RM have changed hands due to low profit and Take a look at Race Foster and My conversations on RDO. He freely admits that he cant make money online live stock and sells it at at loss to be some sort of reef SANTA. Now most of my stores prices are actually lower then their online gig but unlike my store creating customers for LA .... they dont create any customers for my store and thats an unhealthy burded for traditional B&M stores. ( have to create the customers)
Then theres the fly by night online and Ebay stores.
So what if its ten cents cheaper online from some guy selling out of his garage! Is it so wrong to thank the person(store) who took you to the dance(hobby) in the first place?
Dont we see that every time a local store closes that along with it thousands of fellow hobbyists are lost. Its happening Nation Wide.
Marine hobby wholesalers are at their lowest sales in ten years.
As the market shrinks , the reef hobby companies which make the new products and start up like new coral farms loose interest in doing so? Or dont have the volume of customers needed to to conduct business successfully?
There seems to be about fifty percent less hobbyists today in metro ATL then six or seven years ago and its dwindling.
When one considers that three of the top six fish stores have gone under and that most of the remaining stores have changed hands multiple times in the last five years .......one must consider why?
Why is it so hard to stay afloat as a fish store in Atlanta?
Unlike most hobbies , Reef aquarium ownership doesnt get much exposure out in the real world.
Unlike Photography , bass fishing , sports and finger painting ....the idea of owning a reef tank is not something that crosses the minds of the average joe public.
Brick and mortar LFS have to be where the people can find them.
FS& M was a perfect example of being in the right location where as to attract gobs of people and be where they can become not only exposed to the idea of tank ownership, but persuaded the potential customer to act on it as well.
(Nobody surfs the web for girlie pictures , stumbles onto Fosters and Smiths web sites, sees the pretty fish and decides to order a reef tank sight unseen for three grand.
Planting the idea into someones head to spend thousands of dollars on an aquarium is not an easy task.
Very rarely do online retailers create new hobbyists. Usually the hobbyist is already interested in what they are web searching for , be it Calcium reactors or a certain make of baseball glove....
This is where brick and mortars become the backbone of the hobby.They generate the bulk off the hobbyists.
I would venture to guess that The Fish Store and More was responsible for creating several thousand hobbyists per year from within the Buckhead area. (their customer list has five digits)
Over its umpteen years of operation that store has been instrumental in setting the foundations of many aspects of the modern reef hobby.
By choosing to promote Jack Kent's home made reef supplements early on...(which he himself made in the early days in his garage up in Marietta) Fish Store and More may have been instrumental to the future success of Kent Marine the company.
Might things in down town ATL have been different had Bernie Marcus not had the reef keeping bug firmly planted in his head by the folks at FS&M years before the idea of a multi million gallon Public Aquarium ?
Would Don K be where he is at Marine fish had Kent Marine not developed into the successful business it is?
How many of the ARC members would not be in the hobby today had this store not been there to help galvanize the idea that a reef tank could be kept at home and more importantly shown the public that lots of people were doing it!(the reef thing)? I can do it too is easy when so many feef hobbyists are shopping around you.
I remember seeing MY Reef Skimmers at that store back in the nineties.
Even Kalkbreath at one time was in the top 10 percent of FS&Ms customer spenders.... Would I have opened a fish store never having set foot in that place?
Its a sad day when the single largest proponent of local reef keeping goes down.
Its even more unpleasant to think that in a metro city which has the worlds biggest public aquarium and MACNA next year .....that the number of hobbyists and reef stores with in the metro area may be half what it was just a few years back.
Sure the web is great!
You can steal music, movies and the motivation from the people who create the products you love.
Happy reefing!
And why a growing number of hobbyists would rather pay more for a fish or coral online, then to let the local stores get their filthy hands on their money.(?)
Why is it that in spite of shipping costs and the fact that you must spend box pick up time and deal with minimum orders still seems preferable to doing business with local stores?
Is it that newbies believe what they read ? that Flame Angels only cost the dealer five bucks?( they cost 25 if you buy multiples and we sell them for 49.)
IO Salt costs dealers 8.25---7.50 (when on sale) and we sell it for 10.99.
Try paying 14K rent +40K salaries and 10K water and power per month on those mark ups and you too can go out of business in Buckhead.
Even online store like RM have changed hands due to low profit and Take a look at Race Foster and My conversations on RDO. He freely admits that he cant make money online live stock and sells it at at loss to be some sort of reef SANTA. Now most of my stores prices are actually lower then their online gig but unlike my store creating customers for LA .... they dont create any customers for my store and thats an unhealthy burded for traditional B&M stores. ( have to create the customers)
Then theres the fly by night online and Ebay stores.
So what if its ten cents cheaper online from some guy selling out of his garage! Is it so wrong to thank the person(store) who took you to the dance(hobby) in the first place?
Dont we see that every time a local store closes that along with it thousands of fellow hobbyists are lost. Its happening Nation Wide.
Marine hobby wholesalers are at their lowest sales in ten years.
As the market shrinks , the reef hobby companies which make the new products and start up like new coral farms loose interest in doing so? Or dont have the volume of customers needed to to conduct business successfully?
There seems to be about fifty percent less hobbyists today in metro ATL then six or seven years ago and its dwindling.
When one considers that three of the top six fish stores have gone under and that most of the remaining stores have changed hands multiple times in the last five years .......one must consider why?
Why is it so hard to stay afloat as a fish store in Atlanta?
Unlike most hobbies , Reef aquarium ownership doesnt get much exposure out in the real world.
Unlike Photography , bass fishing , sports and finger painting ....the idea of owning a reef tank is not something that crosses the minds of the average joe public.
Brick and mortar LFS have to be where the people can find them.
FS& M was a perfect example of being in the right location where as to attract gobs of people and be where they can become not only exposed to the idea of tank ownership, but persuaded the potential customer to act on it as well.
(Nobody surfs the web for girlie pictures , stumbles onto Fosters and Smiths web sites, sees the pretty fish and decides to order a reef tank sight unseen for three grand.
Planting the idea into someones head to spend thousands of dollars on an aquarium is not an easy task.
Very rarely do online retailers create new hobbyists. Usually the hobbyist is already interested in what they are web searching for , be it Calcium reactors or a certain make of baseball glove....
This is where brick and mortars become the backbone of the hobby.They generate the bulk off the hobbyists.
I would venture to guess that The Fish Store and More was responsible for creating several thousand hobbyists per year from within the Buckhead area. (their customer list has five digits)
Over its umpteen years of operation that store has been instrumental in setting the foundations of many aspects of the modern reef hobby.
By choosing to promote Jack Kent's home made reef supplements early on...(which he himself made in the early days in his garage up in Marietta) Fish Store and More may have been instrumental to the future success of Kent Marine the company.
Might things in down town ATL have been different had Bernie Marcus not had the reef keeping bug firmly planted in his head by the folks at FS&M years before the idea of a multi million gallon Public Aquarium ?
Would Don K be where he is at Marine fish had Kent Marine not developed into the successful business it is?
How many of the ARC members would not be in the hobby today had this store not been there to help galvanize the idea that a reef tank could be kept at home and more importantly shown the public that lots of people were doing it!(the reef thing)? I can do it too is easy when so many feef hobbyists are shopping around you.
I remember seeing MY Reef Skimmers at that store back in the nineties.
Even Kalkbreath at one time was in the top 10 percent of FS&Ms customer spenders.... Would I have opened a fish store never having set foot in that place?
Its a sad day when the single largest proponent of local reef keeping goes down.
Its even more unpleasant to think that in a metro city which has the worlds biggest public aquarium and MACNA next year .....that the number of hobbyists and reef stores with in the metro area may be half what it was just a few years back.
Sure the web is great!
You can steal music, movies and the motivation from the people who create the products you love.
Happy reefing!
cappuccinobay
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WOW !!! what a stir I created.
I had this huge, long response all written out. Then I thought, why bother, nothing I say will change anything. The posts I have read, have obviously come from people who have no clue about owning,operating, and maintaining a LFS.
5$ for a flame angel. HAHAHAHA
15$ for a nice acro colony HAHAHA
What a joke, by the way if you can get anywhere near those prices bring them into my store I will gladly pay you that plus any delivery fee.
Happy Reefing!
Bobby
I had this huge, long response all written out. Then I thought, why bother, nothing I say will change anything. The posts I have read, have obviously come from people who have no clue about owning,operating, and maintaining a LFS.
5$ for a flame angel. HAHAHAHA
15$ for a nice acro colony HAHAHA
What a joke, by the way if you can get anywhere near those prices bring them into my store I will gladly pay you that plus any delivery fee.
Happy Reefing!
Bobby
All of us probably got started in the hobby at a local fish store, and met many great friends while shopping there (We met Simon and Sarah at FS&M). Stores offer a number of advantages - human contact, information, and exposure to animals that you will never buy, but can learn about. Many of us have spent our weekends on a "tour of fish stores". In many ways, they are a mini public aquarium. All that comes at a cost, and this is becoming more difficult in the changing business climate that are facing stores these days.
Many of us with other hobbys have seen the exact same thing happen. There are very few rare book stores these days because you can find the purchases on-line. The good news is that where I used to spend months, maybe years, tracking down something I wanted to complete a collection, I now can get on line and find 12 of them, and pick the best deal delivered right to my door. Much better for me from a financial standpoint, but a bit disappointing for me the collector that actually enjoyed the hunt. Going to fish stores has some of that "hunt" mentality - you don't know what they have and what you will be enticed into buying. If we are honest with ourselves, we pay for that as much as the convenience.
Someone used the Darwin analogy (not really appropriate, since there is no reproduction involved, but anyway). What Darwin actually said was the race is not won by the swiftist or the smartest, but by the one that could adapt. That is what we are seeing here.
Maybe that is the lesson here. We can argue all we want, blaming customers, store owners, or the internet, putting up arguments that are ill informed or inflamatory, or we can just accept that there are real changes happening that go beyond the reef hobby. The internet connects us more to products, but loosens the ties to local communities. That is not good or evil, it just is a fact. That is why clubs like ARC increase in size (and my counseling business sees this with many more lonely people) because there is less social-capital that ties communities together. That does not mean that things are falling apart, it just means that we will find ways of obtaining that social capital in other ways.
FS&M closing is a sad event. We don't have to blame others - we can just acknowledge this as a fact.
Many of us with other hobbys have seen the exact same thing happen. There are very few rare book stores these days because you can find the purchases on-line. The good news is that where I used to spend months, maybe years, tracking down something I wanted to complete a collection, I now can get on line and find 12 of them, and pick the best deal delivered right to my door. Much better for me from a financial standpoint, but a bit disappointing for me the collector that actually enjoyed the hunt. Going to fish stores has some of that "hunt" mentality - you don't know what they have and what you will be enticed into buying. If we are honest with ourselves, we pay for that as much as the convenience.
Someone used the Darwin analogy (not really appropriate, since there is no reproduction involved, but anyway). What Darwin actually said was the race is not won by the swiftist or the smartest, but by the one that could adapt. That is what we are seeing here.
Maybe that is the lesson here. We can argue all we want, blaming customers, store owners, or the internet, putting up arguments that are ill informed or inflamatory, or we can just accept that there are real changes happening that go beyond the reef hobby. The internet connects us more to products, but loosens the ties to local communities. That is not good or evil, it just is a fact. That is why clubs like ARC increase in size (and my counseling business sees this with many more lonely people) because there is less social-capital that ties communities together. That does not mean that things are falling apart, it just means that we will find ways of obtaining that social capital in other ways.
FS&M closing is a sad event. We don't have to blame others - we can just acknowledge this as a fact.
Excellent post Steve.
I manage multiple C Stores up north, we were the leading seller of coffee in any store in the US, One of my stores would sell approximately 14,000 cups a month. A cup of coffee has the highest GP of anything in the store, including Hoagies. It was our bread and butter...
Wawa Food Markets for you yankees
reading this...So I figured I would give my 2 cents as well.
I agree with both sides however, I have been in certain retail stores where the attitudes are that they were doing me a favor by being there and not the other way around. I have managed retail before when I was going to college and I never treated my customers like that. With that being said it isn't all about the price, I do not shop at Wal-Mart, I will pay more for something at Target or other stores. An example, I went into a LFS the other day to browse, I didn't like the attitude I got from the employee. And when I asked him about a guarantee on the fish, he actually chuckled and said no one gives any guarantee on live stock. So, yes I will buy online for the 15 day guarantee and the fact I haven't got to worry about the website giving me lip. Now this store I mentioned above is not a sponsor and I will not go back there either.
Just my opinion and some might not agree with it, but hey we all got opinions on other's opinions don't we? :tongue:
Hahahaha!!! yes, and it has nothing to do with the way it was caught/bagged or the fact it was dropped on the floor before it went into the bag. Like I said, if that is your policy that is fine. LFS are businesses, not some non-profit Asso. that is doing an invaluable service to the community that the local pupolation should support. A failure of a business is not the consumers fault.
Actually I misquoted Darwin, as I am more awake now, from memory it goes something like:
"The race is not won by the swiftest or the strongest, but the one that can adapt".
The evolutionary goal for any organism is to reproduce. Any other adaptation is useless from an evolutionary point of view. The use of Darwin in business or in politics has never been productive, and at times (see WWII) has led to nasty outcomes. There are some good books like "Darwin and the Machines" that look at the development of computers in these broad terms, but they are interesting stretches of his theory at best.
The problem is defining the goal. To quote George Albee (another psychologist - we crop up everywhere), "if you want to change a system, you change the outcome indicator." If our outcome is immediate lower prices, the internet may be useful, but as Jeff pointed out, it may have other consequences (less people entering into the hobby, decreasing demand, making collecting less desirable, making organisms for sale more scarce, ultimately increasing prices). A thousand fish geeks does not support this hobby, it is the larger number of people with less long term passion that keep it afloat. The coffee/coke/water/wine markup analogy is a good one - it pays the restaurant's bills, not the hoagie. The hoagie only brings them into the door.
If the goal is increasing appreciation of the hobby, LFSs are the best model, but the increased social capital carries with it an increased cost.
Who knows how it will turn out? But then again, who ever promised it would stay the same?
BTW - I was talking about RARE books, not regular books. A completely different analogy.
I agree that this thread has gone full circle. Lets not argue at the wake.
"The race is not won by the swiftest or the strongest, but the one that can adapt".
The evolutionary goal for any organism is to reproduce. Any other adaptation is useless from an evolutionary point of view. The use of Darwin in business or in politics has never been productive, and at times (see WWII) has led to nasty outcomes. There are some good books like "Darwin and the Machines" that look at the development of computers in these broad terms, but they are interesting stretches of his theory at best.
The problem is defining the goal. To quote George Albee (another psychologist - we crop up everywhere), "if you want to change a system, you change the outcome indicator." If our outcome is immediate lower prices, the internet may be useful, but as Jeff pointed out, it may have other consequences (less people entering into the hobby, decreasing demand, making collecting less desirable, making organisms for sale more scarce, ultimately increasing prices). A thousand fish geeks does not support this hobby, it is the larger number of people with less long term passion that keep it afloat. The coffee/coke/water/wine markup analogy is a good one - it pays the restaurant's bills, not the hoagie. The hoagie only brings them into the door.
If the goal is increasing appreciation of the hobby, LFSs are the best model, but the increased social capital carries with it an increased cost.
Who knows how it will turn out? But then again, who ever promised it would stay the same?
BTW - I was talking about RARE books, not regular books. A completely different analogy.
I agree that this thread has gone full circle. Lets not argue at the wake.
I really dont like the attitude of the store owners/employees in this thread we have the right to voice an opinion. Ive read alot in this thread as if we are supposed to be super gratefull that these brick and mortar stores are here. Well they should be gratefull to us for shoping and trust me we spend tons of money at LFS most people here dont order online as much as it is made to seem in this thread.As the consumers we should be the ones complaining...competitive pricing, convenience(yes the internet is convienent), return policy, not being sold something just to make a buck. I quit shopping at FS&M many months ago due to the disrespect and lack of customer service that I have received there. There are huge advantages to shopping online some stated already such as availabilty of goods dry/live, variety of goods, and ontop of that priced way better then our LFS. So why do we get snapped on by store owners/employees for voicing an opinion. Not very professional if you ask me.
Inefficiency? Are you sure?
I used to live in Smalltown, USA and saw what happened when a Wal-Mart plopped itself down next to the local Five-And-Dime that had been there for 35+ years.
Townfolk fought the Wal-Mart invasion, but it was built anyway. With a Big Guy like Wally World able to buy inventory in huge quantities (many from questionable overseas suppliers) which resulted in cheaper prices for consumers, the Mom&Pop simply couldn't match it and folded. It was a sad day--like a death in the family. The M&P wasn't inefficient. Prices were not rock bottom discount, but they were reasonable. And if Sam and Edna didn't have what you wanted, they could get it for you. The personal service and first-name basis was always a joy. Bottom line is that the store was simply overmatched by a big, impersonal bully. I've despised Wal-Mart ever since and am glad there's a Target two miles down the road from me, still a big store, but at least it's a company with ethical business practices.
And an ironic footnote: that Wal-Mart, a regular one, eventually relocated as a new *supercenter* 15 miles away from it's original locale. Now the townfolk who used to have that M&P within walking distance (many senior citizens on a fixed income) must drive to shop. And the bonus gift from Wal-Mart? The ugly, vacant shell Wal-Marts always leave behind when they expand. Sad.
I have a new appreciation for the LFS's. No, I still won't take a lot of advice as gospel without researching it on my own, because I've seen so much misinformation, but if I know exactly what I want and the price is reasonable, I'll certainly support the local source.
If I could say the same about our LFS then I would totaly agree with you but most of the time for me persoanlly it has been the opposite. I have never had one LFS employee ask my name or even ask about my tank....actually one guy at CBA did ask if I had mH before selling me an sps coral. I guess people dont take a 24 year old reefer to seriously there loss cause I spend tons on this hobby.
skriz
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why don't the lfs sponsors we have participate in power buys? They could take preorders on stuff offering a specific discount, then they can order the stuff in their next shipment and we can go get it.
Since it is prepaid by us, it doesn't cost them anything. In fact, since they are ordering inverntory anyway, the added livestock to their order will help alleviate the discount they give us with a possible quantity discount from their vendor. Not to mention the frieght savings.
Since it is prepaid by us, it doesn't cost them anything. In fact, since they are ordering inverntory anyway, the added livestock to their order will help alleviate the discount they give us with a possible quantity discount from their vendor. Not to mention the frieght savings.
Not to go to far off topic but.....
Wal-Mart is successful because they engage in unethical business practices. Such as abusing eminent domain if a land owner refuse to sell the land they want and they get it usually way under market value. Furthermore, when they do open a store they will actually lose money on items by dropping the price so low that no one could compete and therefore they force the smaller store out of the area and then raise their prices to make a profit. They are still cheap in the pricing range but they do fix the prices lower in the beginning. Hence why I will not shop there (more for the eminent domain abuse).
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