Reef safe Ick medication

[jgoal55]

Great repsonse. The point he made about the ich going dormant is a great one that everyone should pay close attention to.

Though I only battled ich once in my reef (thanks to Brandon otherwise I'm sure it would have been more), I once had a FW cichlid tank that was loaded with parasites. I tried all types of medicines. after a few weeks and a few fish dying, everything suddenly looked normal and I decided to add some new fish. Sure enough, more fish died including all the newly added ones. Once again, I dosed. everything looked normal after a few weeks. i added fish, things died. It was a vicious cycle. I was finally told that this was undoubtedly a parasitic infection and that parasytes often become "dormant" in tanks. Certain fish build up immunity to the parasite. However, when a new fish is added it does not have that immunity and so the parasite quickly attaches itself to the fish. At that point, the parasite becomes stronger and reproduces quicker and so the "immune" fish suddenly are affected as well because they were not "immune" to the stronger strand.

I was able to determine that the parasite came from some rocks I had. I removed all the rocks and replaced them with some new ones. I did an 80% WC and never had another fish die.

In SW tanks, when a new fish is placed in an aquarium and suddenly ich shows up ppl always assume that it was the new fish that brought it in. while that is usually the case, from what I understand it could just as well be a dormant strand of ich that was always in the tank.

This is why when a tank has ich I am in agreement with Brandon that we should do our best to get rid of it altogether in the tank. while that may be hard work, in the end it is well worth it. I took all my fish out for 2 mos, dipped them, placed them in hypo, raised the display tank temp to 82 and have never seen ich since. I have also QT'd all new fish.

Now I have to concede, I have a 30 gallon tank. If I had one of these monster tanks I don't know how I'd ever do that.

Gluck Mojo.

 

[cameron]

That is one of the best write ups on ick I have read. I had come to similar conclusions thanks to a what Brandon went through and doing some reading on various treatments. I think a UV helps a bit if you get a big one and run water real slow... and I mean slow through it but even then I think at best it keeps outbreaks down not eliminates them.

I hope one day someone will figure out an effective predator for them, but until then I just keep my fish happy and ignore the few spots on my tangs that seem to pop up from time to time.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I was disappointed he mentioned that the cleaner shrimp will eat ick. From what I have read and reserched this is competely UNTRUE! If he has information otherwise, I would love to see it.

It was a thorough and complete write-up, BUT.....I hope everyone can come to appreciate our club now. He didnt really say anything to Chris that any other member hasnt already suggested.

At the very least, I am impressed that a world renowned author and aquarist would take the time out of their schedule to write such a response to a typical hobbyist.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ya I am kinda of ticked off now... Now I have to experiment with the whole "in the absence of a fish" thing... More work and research!

 

[mojo]

jmaneyapanda;132385 wrote: At the very least, I am impressed that a world renowned author and aquarist would take the time out of their schedule to write such a response to a typical hobbyist.

"Typical hobbyist"! Is that all you think of me?!

Actually, I just mentioned that I was talking to Jeremy Maneyapanda, and he promptly told me everything...

Back on a serious note, it was great to get a very in-depth response like that, and it was also great to see that our club members' comments matches his. It's good that it confirms the competance of our members, but not so good in that it's the same "you're kinda screwed" message. Either way, it's good to have an authorative commentary.

At this point, I think my best option is to wait a little longer and see how the fish do. I'd tear my corals to pieces trying to get them out as is, and I'd rather just keep things stable and not stress them any more than I have to.

 

[cameron]

jmaneyapanda;132385 wrote: I was disappointed he mentioned that the cleaner shrimp will eat ick. From what I have read and reserched this is competely UNTRUE! If he has information otherwise, I would love to see it.

I think this is just results without causal evidence. Cleaner shrimp do seem to help ick outbreaks, but those who have done the research have never found ick in the digestive system. However it is believed by many they clean the dead fish scales and excess mucus from the fish which in turn reduces the number of "spots" on the fish and makes the fish more comfortable. That second part can theoritically aid in the creating a happier and thus healthier fish with a stonger immune system.

I agree it isn't direct ick control, but I believe it helps and the logic is reasonable.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Cameron;132462 wrote: I think this is just results without causal evidence. Cleaner shrimp do seem to help ick outbreaks, but those who have done the research have never found ick in the digestive system. However it is believed by many they clean the dead fish scales and excess mucus from the fish which in turn reduces the number of "spots" on the fish and makes the fish more comfortable. That second part can theoritically aid in the creating a happier and thus healthier fish with a stonger immune system.

I agree it isn't direct ick control, but I believe it helps and the logic is reasonable.

Cameron, I agree with your comments entirely. But he specificaly stated "they will eat the parasites off the fish". This is outright misnformation. It woukld be the same as if he said "garlic will kill ick". Some causal realtionships, as you mentioned, but not accurate at all. Unfortunately, people are going to read this, and start stating freely "cleaner shrimps eat ick- Delbeek said so". That is what is disappointing to me.

Mojo- you obviously didnt tell him you were talking to me, or he wouldve told to to go f yourself and the a-hole you're talking to! Honestly, though, I, in no way, think you're screwed. I would guess you'll see imporvemnet rather quickly. I honestly think that your fish have been "sheltered" from external parasites, so their slime coat and defenses were down, which is why they looked so ragged. Imagine if you had a pedicure every day and never left your bed. And then one day you got up and walked on gravel. Your feet would hurt, and would look like hamburger. But you would heal, and eventually you would compansate.

Yeah, lets "imagine" you get a pedicure every day! When in reailyt its only every other day!

 

[mojo]

Yeah- I usually get my manicures and pedicures on alternating days - makes it easier for scheduling and stuff...

An update of my fish: I lost the clown goby introduced into the nano tank... the hermit crab got a good meal. However, maybe it's my imagination or just "willing" it to happen, my PBT and other fish seem to be doing a good bit better. It's probably still too early to tell, but things are looking optimistic at the moment...

 

[FutureInterest]

In defense of garlic!

I love garlic in my food... and heck if its good for me it must be good for my fish! In truth, garlic has its uses. It helps some fish with poor appetites. Getting fishies to eat more and have more strength is in itself beneficial and can indirectly help combat ich. The way I use garlic though is to dump just the freshly crushed juices from about 5 cloves into my tank right when the lights go out.

I don't remember where I heard the theory that something in the garlic can impede ich's tomite stage. It possibly could be the reefkeeping.com article on the stuff? Might be something else I read.

Anyways, we know that the tomites are typically released at night so as to give the lil parasites the best chance at finding new hosts. Since fish "sleep" or at least are fairly stationary at night and the tomites are poor swimmers this adaption makes sense. How the tomites locate their hosts though is unknown. They follow some sort of chemical trail, that much we theorize... but what exactly they track is a mystery.

Anyways, the theory is simply that there is something in the garlic that messes with the tomites tracking system. Such that they have difficulty finding new hosts. It does make sense. If we can screw up their ability to find a new host with a benign reef-safe chemical... we would have a "cure" for ich.

In practice... adding the fresh garlic juice has worked for me. I often get an ich outbreak whenever I add a new fish to the tank. I noticed that I don't get these outbreaks when I add a fish with thick mucous coats like an eel or a blenny. However, when I add a tang... or certain sand burrowing wrasses... good god the ich outbreak is nasty . They just don't naturally make thick slime coats, which sucks for them and for us. So I dose the "Juice" at night and soon all is well. Is this proof that it works? Heck no. Its purely anecdotal evidence at best. Is it based on a sound theory? I think so. Maybe the "Juice" isn't the answer, but I'm sure someone will figure out how to safely mess with their tracking system and make a nice bundle of cash. For the time being, this stuff works for me and I won't stop using it .

 

[jmaneyapanda]

FutureInterest;132488 wrote: In defense of garlic!

I love garlic in my food... and heck if its good for me it must be good for my fish! In truth, garlic has its uses. It helps some fish with poor appetites. Getting fishies to eat more and have more strength is in itself beneficial and can indirectly help combat ich. The way I use garlic though is to dump just the freshly crushed juices from about 5 cloves into my tank right when the lights go out.

I don't remember where I heard the theory that something in the garlic can impede ich's tomite stage. It possibly could be the reefkeeping.com article on the stuff? Might be something else I read.

Anyways, we know that the tomites are typically released at night so as to give the lil parasites the best chance at finding new hosts. Since fish "sleep" or at least are fairly stationary at night and the tomites are poor swimmers this adaption makes sense. How the tomites locate their hosts though is unknown. They follow some sort of chemical trail, that much we theorize... but what exactly they track is a mystery.

Anyways, the theory is simply that there is something in the garlic that messes with the tomites tracking system. Such that they have difficulty finding new hosts. It does make sense. If we can screw up their ability to find a new host with a benign reef-safe chemical... we would have a "cure" for ich.

In practice... adding the fresh garlic juice has worked for me. I often get an ich outbreak whenever I add a new fish to the tank. I noticed that I don't get these outbreaks when I add a fish with thick mucous coats like an eel or a blenny. However, when I add a tang... or certain sand burrowing wrasses... good god the ich outbreak is nasty . They just don't naturally make thick slime coats, which sucks for them and for us. So I dose the "Juice" at night and soon all is well. Is this proof that it works? Heck no. Its purely anecdotal evidence at best. Is it based on a sound theory? I think so. Maybe the "Juice" isn't the answer, but I'm sure someone will figure out how to safely mess with their tracking system and make a nice bundle of cash. For the time being, this stuff works for me and I won't stop using it .

Jin,
I think you theory has a lot of creedance, and may certainly be applicable. Many of the previous generation "reef safe cures" used this principle. IE- Kent RXP and ChemMarin Stoparasite all has essentially tabasco sauce, because it was believed (maybe through study) that this would "attract" the free stage ick, and then the attached ick tomont and foreign additive would be removed by the skimmer. As you mentioned, I wouldnt call it a "cure" in any sense of the word, but instead a deterant. And its efficacy is questionable, but possible. So why not?
As alluded to by Delbeek, though, is a more important aspect to this topic- does "garlic food", or "garlic additive" that we can purchase form a LFS have the same effect as true fresh undiluted garlic from the prss? In my opinion, not even close. I think much of the garlic product available is true blue snake oil (kinda like Kalk+2, which I recently am discovering:boo: ), and it "preys" on hobbyists. Sure, it may be an appetite stimulant, but I dont think it has any effect whatsoever on disease control.

 

[FutureInterest]

I agree about the prepared foods with garlic in it. I've tried the prepared juice as well to no avail. The fresh juice makes the tank smell of garlic... but it has "worked". At worst, it will serve as a nice marinade in case the fish die of the ich.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

The only thing I would be cautious of is potential side effect in specific genera of animals. For example, the tabasco in the RXP and Stoparasite had bad (ie-fatal) consequences on starfish, and lionfish (I think). I dont think garlic will have such an effect, but who knows.

 

[FutureInterest]

They really had tabasco? I thought you were kidding...

 

[glxtrix]

I've fed chunks of garlic to my fish with no ill effects. Ok not chunks, but I did smash it and throw it in with the food. I do this a few times every month just to stay on top of healthy fish. I'm a firm believer in garlic and its goods to the aquatic life. Plus its soooo yummy on all types of food

 

[jmaneyapanda]

FutureInterest;132567 wrote: They really had tabasco? I thought you were kidding...

It was seriously like cayenne pepper or something. An organic pepper. I cant say exactly because I dont work for Kent or Chem Marin. But I could see how garlic would have similar qualities.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

glxtrix;132569 wrote: I've fed chunks of garlic to my fish with no ill effects. Ok not chunks, but I did smash it and throw it in with the food. I do this a few times every month just to stay on top of healthy fish. I'm a firm believer in garlic and its goods to the aquatic life. Plus its soooo yummy on all types of food

I think garlic likely goes a long way towrads making fish feel good (physiologically, mentally, whatever), so, ipso facto, has a direct relationship to their overall health. Asn I mentioned, whether is has a direct realtionship with ick, perhaps, maybe, i dont know, but it is casual at best. But nonetheless, if dipping your marbles in your tank shows good effects, I say do it (that was to gross you out a little more).

 

[mojo]

Just as a public announcement, I abused my admin priveledges and edited an old post of mine. Delbeek was a little concerned about the use of specific product names, so I removed that reference.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

FutureInterest;132567 wrote: They really had tabasco? I thought you were kidding...

Ya they are pepper based...

Add that to the use of Garlic and the fact that some people use ginger or ginsing and you got yourself a Korean dinner!!!

 

[xyzpdq0121]

jmaneyapanda;132573 wrote: But nonetheless, if dipping your marbles in your tank shows good effects, I say do it (that was to gross you out a little more).

I tried that, it did not work and my micron sock got clogged with hair. :sad:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Xyzpdq0121;132668 wrote: I tried that, it did not work and my micron sock got clogged with hair. :sad:

FOUL!!!!!!