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Why does it seem like there is very little actual research done in this area?
Reef safe Ick medication
- Thread starter mojo
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http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php</a>
Yah I did read about pepper after all and I didn't remember.
Old age sucks...
Yah I did read about pepper after all and I didn't remember.
Old age sucks...
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You guys are ALL WRONG...It's Marine Herpes!!
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lol, thats pretty funnny....i think i owe u a frag brandon
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http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php</a>
number 8=kick ich (some people confuse Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich with similar sounding meds) If your fish don't improve, it might be worth having a small QT tank with a few frags of SPS & dose in the proper % to see how they react??? Just an idea.
[IMG]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/sp/index.php">http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/sp/index.php</a>
at 19 bucks a liter, here is the minimum dosage & the picture is what I dosed for 15 days on, then 15 days off, and then again, 15 days on. you can figure the price from there. What I would do is get REAL garlic cloves and use a cheese grater to mush a piece up. SOAK your rinsed frozen in garlic & selcon in frig overnight. feed the next day. I would also install a high wattage UV light to help what is in the water column. If things got worse, I would test some sps in a frag tank to see if they were ok with kick-ich. I know it worked for me, but like I said, I only had softies in my tank. Now with sps, I would be scared to try it in my display. Just trying to offer some suggestions. been there before, & I don't have it now.
number 8=kick ich (some people confuse Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich with similar sounding meds) If your fish don't improve, it might be worth having a small QT tank with a few frags of SPS & dose in the proper % to see how they react??? Just an idea.
[IMG]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/sp/index.php">http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/sp/index.php</a>
at 19 bucks a liter, here is the minimum dosage & the picture is what I dosed for 15 days on, then 15 days off, and then again, 15 days on. you can figure the price from there. What I would do is get REAL garlic cloves and use a cheese grater to mush a piece up. SOAK your rinsed frozen in garlic & selcon in frig overnight. feed the next day. I would also install a high wattage UV light to help what is in the water column. If things got worse, I would test some sps in a frag tank to see if they were ok with kick-ich. I know it worked for me, but like I said, I only had softies in my tank. Now with sps, I would be scared to try it in my display. Just trying to offer some suggestions. been there before, & I don't have it now.
Interesting report. I found #12 particularly interesting - Delbeek claimed that the metronidizal wouldn't do any good, but Steven Pro indicated that it would be beneficial.
Either way, I had been using it over the past several days. Conincidence or not, all my fish are doing a LOT better- enough to say that they'll make it at this point.
One interesting observation: During the heaviest infection/infestation, the PBT was very "withdrawn" or shy - it'd come out only when there was food present, but retreat back to the rocks otherwise. While this PBT was never aggressive, it typically stayed out when I was around. Today, looking much better, it was out the entire time, picking at the substrate, rocks, Jeremy's clams, the tunzes, etc. It was an intersting change of behavior - I'm not sure if it somehow / instinctively knew it was more vernerable or what exactly.
Also- this may also be coincidental, but I did notice on three separate occasions today the PBT retreating behind the rocks to the exact spot where the two new fire shrimp were camping out. I couldn't see directly if they were doing anything, but the fish really wasn't moving for a minute at a time, then would come back out, and I'd see the shrimp jump back to where they were previously hanging on to. Were they cleaning the tang? Possibly...
I'll post a followup picture tomorrow.
Either way, I had been using it over the past several days. Conincidence or not, all my fish are doing a LOT better- enough to say that they'll make it at this point.
One interesting observation: During the heaviest infection/infestation, the PBT was very "withdrawn" or shy - it'd come out only when there was food present, but retreat back to the rocks otherwise. While this PBT was never aggressive, it typically stayed out when I was around. Today, looking much better, it was out the entire time, picking at the substrate, rocks, Jeremy's clams, the tunzes, etc. It was an intersting change of behavior - I'm not sure if it somehow / instinctively knew it was more vernerable or what exactly.
Also- this may also be coincidental, but I did notice on three separate occasions today the PBT retreating behind the rocks to the exact spot where the two new fire shrimp were camping out. I couldn't see directly if they were doing anything, but the fish really wasn't moving for a minute at a time, then would come back out, and I'd see the shrimp jump back to where they were previously hanging on to. Were they cleaning the tang? Possibly...
I'll post a followup picture tomorrow.
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Congrats Chris... I have seen my fire shrimp clean, just not as readily as my two skunks. The fish will try to get him too but he rarely jumps on.
As far as the metronidizal goes. It WILL work but the problem is how it is dosed. Most of Steven's writings and my conversations with him have agreed that it WILL work but the does is dependent on body weight of the fish. Then making sure the fish consumes enough (which is a lot if done orally) is a hard task. How much does each fish eat of the medicated food? How much of the medication is washed off before the fish eats it? How much does your fish weigh? Most of the research done in the area that has proved that it will work, the fish was injected with the meds at a lower dose. I doubt you want to go that route.
So end result, it does work but more often then not, you can not get enough in the fish to make it a "cure".
What you are doing is exactly right, keep feeding well and keep the water clean. The fish will take care of the rest!
As far as the metronidizal goes. It WILL work but the problem is how it is dosed. Most of Steven's writings and my conversations with him have agreed that it WILL work but the does is dependent on body weight of the fish. Then making sure the fish consumes enough (which is a lot if done orally) is a hard task. How much does each fish eat of the medicated food? How much of the medication is washed off before the fish eats it? How much does your fish weigh? Most of the research done in the area that has proved that it will work, the fish was injected with the meds at a lower dose. I doubt you want to go that route.
So end result, it does work but more often then not, you can not get enough in the fish to make it a "cure".
What you are doing is exactly right, keep feeding well and keep the water clean. The fish will take care of the rest!
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here's a great article, too
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html">http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html</a>
and here
[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm</a>
http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html">http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html</a>
and here
[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm</a>
Well, I thought I had beaten the Ich, but it's returned and worse than it was before. The PBT is still hanging on, and he's eating the metronidizole-laced nori, so I'm still doing eveything I can to try to pull them through.
Taking good macro shots of a moving target is really tough without a flash!
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Taking good macro shots of a moving target is really tough without a flash!
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If you have enough time, you could try doing daily water changes from the bottom of the aquarium for up to two weeks as well. Sometimes this can decrease the number and virulence of the cysts such that the fish is able to fight the lesser amount of swarmers enough to help thwart their lifecycle. atleast i read that anthony calfo suggested this a while back.
The idea sounds plausible, but doing daily water changes from the bottom of the tank would be a feat unto itself....
Sure, but I'm not sure what this would do other than slow the metabolism for both the fish and the parasite.... enlighten me...
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mojo;136734 said:The idea sounds plausible, but doing daily water changes from the bottom of the tank would be a feat unto itself....quote]
Mojo i can tell you what i did. I added some metronidazole like you, bc my pbt had an eye infection as well. however i also added beta glucan with the metro mixed on his nori. i decided to do this after i read an advanced aquarist article on beta glucan and its effect on the immune system and how it is particularly efficient when used w/ antibiotics. While i was doing this i did real small wc's from the bottom for like 9-10 days they dont have to be real big and can actually be kinda easy. Its been about two months now and i havent seen a spot on my pbt or my regal tang since. I attached a cpl before and after images of my tang for reference and a link to the advanced aquarist article i mentioned.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/feature.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/feature.htm</a>
Before:
[IMG]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/015.jpg>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/015.jpg</a>
<u><span style="color: #22229c;">>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/009.jpg</a></span></u>
>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/008.jpg</a>
After:
>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/160.jpg</a>
>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/139.jpg</a>
>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/187.jpg</a>
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If you decide you'd like to try the beta glucan with the metro i have a full bottle of it and id be happy to give you as much as you needed.
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The pictures dont show how bad the crypt actually was but here is another one i think shows it a little better.
>http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg119/patrick2141/010.jpg</a>
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Here is the question anthony calfo answered that i suggested earlier.
Now on to the Ich I have tried upping the temp, 82, and garlic supplements, to no avail.
--- Neither is a primary means of treatment... they are secondary/supportive at best. Once infected, fish need to be isolated (4 weeks ) while the display runs fallow without a viable host. Daily water changes from the bottom of the tank for 8 consecutive days can actually break the cycle (Ich) without meds in some cases... but play it safe and do FW dips and/or Formalin treatments to be safe.
Now on to the Ich I have tried upping the temp, 82, and garlic supplements, to no avail.
--- Neither is a primary means of treatment... they are secondary/supportive at best. Once infected, fish need to be isolated (4 weeks ) while the display runs fallow without a viable host. Daily water changes from the bottom of the tank for 8 consecutive days can actually break the cycle (Ich) without meds in some cases... but play it safe and do FW dips and/or Formalin treatments to be safe.
Fish do well in lower temps (usually closer to their own temp, oxygen is higher) and ick population slows down. It could give the fish enough time to get its immunity system in check and fight off new attacks. Higher temps means more ick coming at the fish and given his infestation, slowing that down might give him/her time to fight it off naturally.
Just a thought.
This is old style advice to me and has not been very effective in any of the cases of ick I have heard people fight off. Personally, hypo is a better treatment than FW or formalin which IMO at least in the formalin case are toxic in the extreme. That stuff reaks long term havoc on humans in much smaller doses... I can only imagine the long term consequences on a fish.
As for leaving the tank fallow, I still think ick lives in an egg state until some biological function of a fish triggers it to hatch. Maybe stirring up the bottom is that trigger, but I think ick is much harder to get rid of than that.
