What exactly do I do????

[radha]

tjherman;369776 wrote: Ick, Ich! Radha, I hope you are remembering to breathe! Keep us updated on your fish.

JennM;369778 wrote: If it's a hang on the back filter - it does not matter. The filter is a filter - period. You will want it to move water, period. The powerhead will help too. Just leave out the filter cartridge or you will be wasting your time. The carbon in the filter cartridge will remove the Cupramine, so that's why you must omit it.

You can do this... take a breath... relax. You have a plan, now you just need to implement it.

If I can do it, you can do it. You should have seen the look on my face the first day I worked at a LFS and my boss pointed me over to the shop's quarantine system and told me to freshwater dip the $250 Annularis. I did it just like he told me to - and it worked (in that case the fish had flukes and it looked like a snow globe in the container after he was done!)... it freaked me out a bit too - but I did it, and everything was fine.

Look at it this way - if you do nothing for the fish, it's not likely to get well on its own (it could.. but the odds are against that)... so anything you try is both a help as well as a learning experience.

You can do it - I know you can.

Jenn

Trying to breathe, trust me, although, I slept soundly through the night. That might be because it took a LONG time to clean out the tank!
I dunno Jenn, I'm only 11, it's tricky wothout anyone who knows what they're doing to help me, but I'm convinced I will be ok..Need input on this: I'm not using the new saltwater for the tank, I'm gonna take out 5 gallons of the main tank water, and replace it with the new saltwater. That way, my clownfish will be used to some of the water. Then I will put the new freshwater in. What do think of this? I would just be more comfortable getting it into something that it knows. A con is the water might have the disease still in it, the pro is, if I change the water in the other tank it will lessen the chance of the other fish getting it. What do you think, change the water and put it in the QT, or use new saltwater for the QT?

Steps for today:
1. Get the water in
2. Stablility in and cycle for about 3 hours (dunno if that's enough time?)
3. Start dosing buffer into freshwater while cycling
4. Freshwater dip
5. Into tank
That's it for today, unless you think I need to start medicating it immediatley, the only problem is I don't have a copper test (the people forgot to give it to me!) so I don't want it to get too high. I can go pick one up, but my LFS closes at 8 and it's gonna take me all day to do this.
I'd come to you if you were closer, and I wasn't booked, maybe sometime next week I'll stop by, because I really feel I should thank you in person!
I know this is a lot of input at this time, but I don't wanna make a mistake!
Thanks a bunch Jenn!
Radha

 

[radha]

Log on Jenn. I need you!!

 

[radha]

Yay for Jenn! You're online!

 

[jennm]

Sorry - I'm here

Your plan is right on the money.

The only thing I will caution you about... 5 gallons of saltwater at 1.025 (was that what it was? I'm too lazy to go back in the thread), mixed with 5 gallons of fresh might drop the specific gravity too much. I'd go 7 gallons of saltwater to 3 of fresh, check it to see what that nets you. You can always dilute it down a bit farther if need be, but it's more of a pain at this point to bring it back up again if you drop it too far. Other than the proportions you're right on.

You're only 11? I knew you were young -but you are very mature for your years (that's a compliment, btw ) My kids kept their own tanks when they were 8 and 10, with very little interference from me - so I KNOW you can do this. Age doesn't matter - you're doing just fine, and you are gaining experience and knowledge that people twice your age (and beyond) haven't tackled yet. That's a good thing!

OK... so... quarantine setup is figured out for the most part... yes, taking the aged saltwater out of the tank is better in this instance, because your parameters there are good (if the water in the main tank was yucky, we'd be having a different conversation) and your instincts are right that the less of a change is better. Dropping the specific gravity is the only significant change to anticipate, and dropping it down relatively quickly is a lot less stressful to fish than raising it quickly (when the time comes to re-acclimate the fish back to main tank we'll talk about that).

As for parasites being in the water - yes that is a concern but not a large one at this point because they are already on the fish. The Cupramine is going to take care of those, so don't fret about that possibility at this point.

As for how long the tank will "cycle"... that's a bit of a misnomer. Allowing the new setup to circulate for a couple of hours is a good idea - gives you time to regroup and plan how you will do the next move. Because the quarantine tank is not truly cycled, using a bit of sand from the main tank and some Stability will help a bit, but there is still potential for there to be an ammonia issue in the days to come.

Another thing that I didn't think of yesterday... but came to me this morning... if you're going back to the LFS at some point today/tonight, see if the have some Seachem Matrix - even a small 100 ml bag of it. This can be done after the fact too... if you start the QT today, and do the rest tonight, that's OK... get some Matrix (or De*Nitrate will do - also Seachem), put it in a dish and pour a dose of Stability on it, then place that in the tank. If you get the 100ml bag, just drop the bag into the bottom of the tank. If it's loose (ie comes in a jar), you can either put that on the bottom, or in a gladware or similar dish on the bottom. Matrix and De*Nitrate are made of the same porous material, just that Matrix is larger pieces, but they both do the same thing: provide surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize - in a similar way to live rock.

Doing this will help get the tank stabilized and hopefully minimize any occurrence of ammonia and/or nitrite.

We'll talk about monitoring the water quality later on - I'm probably already giving you information overload (sorry!).

Once you've got the QT setup and you've caught your breath... it's going to probably take some doing to get that clownfish out of there. IMO that's going to be the most difficult part. How many fish are in the tank? If there aren't many it may even be an idea to treat them all... in case they are brewing it. For now, I think I'd just move the fish with symptoms, and then if any others show symptoms, move them into the QT also (I'm sort of thinking aloud here).

I am of the belief that it's virtually impossible to completely eradicate ich from any system - and I know others disagree with that (we even had that conversation at Seachem last week, and their thinking leans toward mine)... if the fish remaining are doing OK without symptoms, leave them be for now.

Go ahead and treat with the Cupramine, per the dosing on the package. One ml (I believe there is a small 1 ml pipette in the container) per 10.5 gallons. I'd use maybe a drop less than in the pipette since it is a 10g tank (it *is* 10g, right?) Fill the pipette to just below the bulb, squeeze out a drop back into the bottle, then put it in the QT. Do pick up a test kit when you can, but at that dose you should be just fine.

I have to take care of a customer right now (who brought me some much-needed 10 W 30 coffee!) but I'll check back in a bit.

All of this is giving me some ideas for an article

Jenn

 

[radha]

Oh, Jenn. I am still here, but if I log out, it is because of your very long post! Just kidding.

 

[radha]

JennM;369875 wrote: Sorry - I'm here

Your plan is right on the money.

The only thing I will caution you about... 5 gallons of saltwater at 1.025 (was that what it was? I'm too lazy to go back in the thread), mixed with 5 gallons of fresh might drop the specific gravity too much. I'd go 7 gallons of saltwater to 3 of fresh, check it to see what that nets you. You can always dilute it down a bit farther if need be, but it's more of a pain at this point to bring it back up again if you drop it too far. Other than the proportions you're right on.

You're only 11? I knew you were young -but you are very mature for your years (that's a compliment, btw ) My kids kept their own tanks when they were 8 and 10, with very little interference from me - so I KNOW you can do this. Age doesn't matter - you're doing just fine, and you are gaining experience and knowledge that people twice your age (and beyond) haven't tackled yet. That's a good thing!

OK... so... quarantine setup is figured out for the most part... yes, taking the aged saltwater out of the tank is better in this instance, because your parameters there are good (if the water in the main tank was yucky, we'd be having a different conversation) and your instincts are right that the less of a change is better. Dropping the specific gravity is the only significant change to anticipate, and dropping it down relatively quickly is a lot less stressful to fish than raising it quickly (when the time comes to re-acclimate the fish back to main tank we'll talk about that).

As for parasites being in the water - yes that is a concern but not a large one at this point because they are already on the fish. The Cupramine is going to take care of those, so don't fret about that possibility at this point.

As for how long the tank will "cycle"... that's a bit of a misnomer. Allowing the new setup to circulate for a couple of hours is a good idea - gives you time to regroup and plan how you will do the next move. Because the quarantine tank is not truly cycled, using a bit of sand from the main tank and some Stability will help a bit, but there is still potential for there to be an ammonia issue in the days to come.

Another thing that I didn't think of yesterday... but came to me this morning... if you're going back to the LFS at some point today/tonight, see if the have some Seachem Matrix - even a small 100 ml bag of it. This can be done after the fact too... if you start the QT today, and do the rest tonight, that's OK... get some Matrix (or De*Nitrate will do - also Seachem), put it in a dish and pour a dose of Stability on it, then place that in the tank. If you get the 100ml bag, just drop the bag into the bottom of the tank. If it's loose (ie comes in a jar), you can either put that on the bottom, or in a gladware or similar dish on the bottom. Matrix and De*Nitrate are made of the same porous material, just that Matrix is larger pieces, but they both do the same thing: provide surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize - in a similar way to live rock.

Doing this will help get the tank stabilized and hopefully minimize any occurrence of ammonia and/or nitrite.

We'll talk about monitoring the water quality later on - I'm probably already giving you information overload (sorry!).

Once you've got the QT setup and you've caught your breath... it's going to probably take some doing to get that clownfish out of there. IMO that's going to be the most difficult part. How many fish are in the tank? If there aren't many it may even be an idea to treat them all... in case they are brewing it. For now, I think I'd just move the fish with symptoms, and then if any others show symptoms, move them into the QT also (I'm sort of thinking aloud here).

I am of the belief that it's virtually impossible to completely eradicate ich from any system - and I know others disagree with that (we even had that conversation at Seachem last week, and their thinking leans toward mine)... if the fish remaining are doing OK without symptoms, leave them be for now.

Go ahead and treat with the Cupramine, per the dosing on the package. One ml (I believe there is a small 1 ml pipette in the container) per 10.5 gallons. I'd use maybe a drop less than in the pipette since it is a 10g tank (it *is* 10g, right?) Fill the pipette to just below the bulb, squeeze out a drop back into the bottle, then put it in the QT. Do pick up a test kit when you can, but at that dose you should be just fine.

I have to take care of a customer right now (who brought me some much-needed 10 W 30 coffee!) but I'll check back in a bit.

All of this is giving me some ideas for an article

Jenn

Ok, I'll minimize the fresh and put more salt and if I don't like it, I'll add a little more fresh. Yes, I'm 11, and thanks for the compliment!

So I can go back to the LFS today, no problem, but I'm kinda confused on the whole matrix thing. I understand I pour it on top of the stability, and I put that formula in a jar (yes or no?) and then I put the jar into the tank, closed up? What I'm kinda trying to get at is do I pour the formula directly into the tank, and let it dissolve in with the cycle? That's really the only question on that part. I'm gonna go ahead and get the water ready but I can wait to put the stability in if the matrix MUST go in with the stability.
And how much matrix should I put in?

I have 4 fish, but 2 of them--my red striped goby and jawfish-- are gonna be hard to catch, and I don't wanna treat the copper in the tank, because that will kill a lot of corals and such. I can get the 2 clownfish easily, and they might be the only ones who have it, because they are around eachother a lot, and the jawfish and goby are pretty solitary. Unless the ich gets transmitted through water.

Now, do you want me to go ahead and acclimate the clownfish before I put her into the QT? That would take a while, and get rid of some of the water, but if you think I should acclimate her, I can.

It is a 10 gallon tank, so I know how to dose it. I think that's all we have covered for this part. I just need a few questions answered, and then I'm gonna start going!
Thanks a bunch Jenn, you take time outta your day to help me, that really means a lot!
Radha

BTW~ There is no overload of info for me. I soak up all I can get!!

 

[radha]

One more request: I went to bed at 12:00 last night, so you need to keep me awake, otherwise I'll just fall asleep on the computer chair, and I won't get anything done!

 

[dartfrog]

Having a slow day at work and just read this entire post from beginning to end, and I must say how impressed I am with the both of you. Radha you should be proud of yourself for the hard work and compassion you have shown, and Jenn the amount of time and effort you have put in to help this fine young 11 yr old is amazing! The whole post has kinda given me a warm fuzzy feeling inside! BTW I don't live in Atl. anymore but when I visit I'm definately going to come to your shop and buy stuff. You both rock!

 

[radha]

kevinsolar;369886 wrote: Having a slow day at work and just read this entire post from beginning to end, and I must say how impressed I am with the both of you. Radha you should be proud of yourself for the hard work and compassion you have shown, and Jenn the amount of time and effort you have put in to help this fine young 11 yr old is amazing! The whole post has kinda given me a warm fuzzy feeling inside! BTW I don't live in Atl. anymore but when I visit I'm definately going to come to your shop and buy stuff. You both rock!

Thanks so much, it really means a lot to me, and Jenn deserves a round of applause for everything!! Go Jenn!

 

[oldschool52]

Just read post. Radha, you're doing fine. Jenn, I thought I had patience. You are one of my and Rox's favorites and the above is one of the main reasons why. Kudos, Kudos, etc, etc.

 

[radha]

<span style="color: black">Ok, and with that, I'm gonna get started! I'll come back here if I need. Oh, and Jenn, if you're looking at this, LOG ON!! I'm just kidding, but try to get on later and answer the response I just made to you about the matrix! Thanks guys, be back in about an hour!</span>

 

[jennm]

OK... I'm back... had a few customers to see to and the phone has been busy this morning

MANY thanks to AndyMan... he was PM'ing me late last night and I made a joke that I'd need some 10 W 30 coffee this morning. Not only did he bring me a coffee, but a nice thermos, 2 travel mugs and a nifty insulated bag for the set... very nice, Andy!

So now that I'm all caffeinated...

Matrix or De*Nitrate... it's basically gravel. It's really porous gravel, and it's used as a biological media (ie instead of bioballs or whatnot). It's sort of a substitute for live rock rubble or similar. Reasons I suggested it: It's clean... it's easy, and it provides a LOT of surface area for those good bacteria to colonize in. If you get a jar of the stuff, open it, pour in some Stability, shake it up a bit to get the Stability all over the Matrix (or De*Nitrate -they are the same stuff but the latter is smaller particle sizes). Then pour the now-wet-with-Stability Matrix into a dish and place it in the tank (not closed up) or you can just pour the "gravel" (Matrix) into the bottom of the tank. I suggested putting it in a shallow dish because it's easier to vacuum the bottom of the tank around it - but it really doesn't matter if it's put in there loose or in an open container.. just make it a wide, shallow dish, not a tall deep one - if that makes sense.

The purpose of that is to try to jump-start some good biological activity, since you're going to move a fish into an uncycled tank - this is going to provide somewhat of an accelerated start to the biological in the QT because at this point you don't have the luxury of time to set it up and let Mother Nature do her thing for a couple of weeks.

So...

LFS shopping list:

*Copper Test Kit (Seachem or Red Sea work for Cupramine)

*Seachem Matrix or De*Nitrate (careful - do NOT get "Matrix Carbon" - different product - I hate that the name can spark confusion). It's gray gravel looking stuff and it comes either in a little 100 ml bag (which is packaged in a box), or in a clear plastic jar - comes in a number of sizes. I think the 100ml bag is enough but if you end up with a large size, use it all - in this instance, more is better. If you get the bag, leave the stuff in the bag, soak it in a dose of Stability and just drop it into the bottom of the tank - that's your "live rock and sand" substitute.

*Stability (if you don't have some already)

*Prime (if you don't have some already)... can also use Aquavitro Alpha. This will come in handy in a few days if/when there's some ammonia/nitrite in the water. Prime (and Alpha) detoxify ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. These compounds WILL still test positive in a test kit, but the Prime will bind to them and render them inert so they won't do harm to the fish.

I *think* that's all you'll need for now if you already have the Cupramine.

If you are doing a freshwater dip immediately before placing the clown into the QT, you do not need to "acclimate" it to the QT. Take the clown out of the DT, give it the 7 minute freshwater dip, then place it right into the QT.

I think that's it for now - I got another wave of customers... if I think of anything else I'll post it

Jenn

 

[radha]

JennM;369916 wrote: OK... I'm back... had a few customers to see to and the phone has been busy this morning

MANY thanks to AndyMan... he was PM'ing me late last night and I made a joke that I'd need some 10 W 30 coffee this morning. Not only did he bring me a coffee, but a nice thermos, 2 travel mugs and a nifty insulated bag for the set... very nice, Andy!

So now that I'm all caffeinated...

Matrix or De*Nitrate... it's basically gravel. It's really porous gravel, and it's used as a biological media (ie instead of bioballs or whatnot). It's sort of a substitute for live rock rubble or similar. Reasons I suggested it: It's clean... it's easy, and it provides a LOT of surface area for those good bacteria to colonize in. If you get a jar of the stuff, open it, pour in some Stability, shake it up a bit to get the Stability all over the Matrix (or De*Nitrate -they are the same stuff but the latter is smaller particle sizes). Then pour the now-wet-with-Stability Matrix into a dish and place it in the tank (not closed up) or you can just pour the "gravel" (Matrix) into the bottom of the tank. I suggested putting it in a shallow dish because it's easier to vacuum the bottom of the tank around it - but it really doesn't matter if it's put in there loose or in an open container.. just make it a wide, shallow dish, not a tall deep one - if that makes sense.

The purpose of that is to try to jump-start some good biological activity, since you're going to move a fish into an uncycled tank - this is going to provide somewhat of an accelerated start to the biological in the QT because at this point you don't have the luxury of time to set it up and let Mother Nature do her thing for a couple of weeks.

So...

LFS shopping list:

*Copper Test Kit (Seachem or Red Sea work for Cupramine)

*Seachem Matrix or De*Nitrate (careful - do NOT get "Matrix Carbon" - different product - I hate that the name can spark confusion). It's gray gravel looking stuff and it comes either in a little 100 ml bag (which is packaged in a box), or in a clear plastic jar - comes in a number of sizes. I think the 100ml bag is enough but if you end up with a large size, use it all - in this instance, more is better. If you get the bag, leave the stuff in the bag, soak it in a dose of Stability and just drop it into the bottom of the tank - that's your "live rock and sand" substitute.

*Stability (if you don't have some already)

*Prime (if you don't have some already)... can also use Aquavitro Alpha. This will come in handy in a few days if/when there's some ammonia/nitrite in the water. Prime (and Alpha) detoxify ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. These compounds WILL still test positive in a test kit, but the Prime will bind to them and render them inert so they won't do harm to the fish.

I *think* that's all you'll need for now if you already have the Cupramine.

If you are doing a freshwater dip immediately before placing the clown into the QT, you do not need to "acclimate" it to the QT. Take the clown out of the DT, give it the 7 minute freshwater dip, then place it right into the QT.

I think that's it for now - I got another wave of customers... if I think of anything else I'll post it

Jenn

Great, I just got the tank going, and the salinity is perfect! I don't have the matrix yet, but I wanna put the stability in there, without the matrix, should I do that? I have most of what's on your list, I should drop by my LFS and get a copper test and matrix. I am just SO nervous now that I'm doing it. Oh, yeah, the water in the 10 gallon is a little lower than it should be (attach a pic later), should I add more saltwater, and TRY and balance it out, or should I just leave it low? I'm gonna head out to Marine Designs and go grab some stuff. I think I'm gonna put the fish in tommorow, and get all that dip stuff done tommorow also. Do you have any idea how long it will take to get rid of the ich? I think my other clownfish is gonna get it because they share a mushroom, and they were huddling in it together earlier, so I'm pretty sure we have a problem. I might even just treat him with the female, so she doesn't get too lonely, and freak out. I think it will be less stressful. Oh, and one more question, if the female leaves the tank, and I decide not to take the male with her, will the male think she died and turn into a female, like they normally do when one dies, or will it have a special sense and know she's not dead, and stay a male?
Thanks again Jenn!
Update ya later! I'm gonna go ahead and do the stability and pour more salwater in, and balance it out, then run out to my LFS.
Radha

 

[radha]

Jenn! I have a problem!

 

[radha]

Stay on here!! I dunno what to do!! I don't have a heater! I have a heater for the buckets, when I'm heating up my saltwater before the water change, what should I do? Just use that?

 

[radha]

Jenn? Are you there?

 

[jennm]

radha;369944 wrote: Great, I just got the tank going, and the salinity is perfect!

What's the specific gravity? Gimme a number.. (please )

I don't have the matrix yet, but I wanna put the stability in there, without the matrix, should I do that?

Yes. Go ahead and do the Day 1 dose for a new aquarium. You can do the thing with the Matrix later. No worries there.

I have most of what's on your list, I should drop by my LFS and get a copper test and matrix. I am just SO nervous now that I'm doing it.

Relax. There's no test/quiz *g*... and parts of this are not exact science. The only thing I want you to consider exact science is the amount of Cupramine into the QT - and you're already on that, so you're set.

Oh, yeah, the water in the 10 gallon is a little lower than it should be (attach a pic later), should I add more saltwater, and TRY and balance it out, or should I just leave it low?

If you're short of water, keep that in mind when you dose the Cupramine. If you haven't dosed it already, wait until you are ready to move the fish. Dose it then, wait a bit, test it (maybe 30 minutes later) and you should be good to go. If you don't fill the tank, do a bit less than the suggested dosage of the Cupramine - to compensate for the bit less water. Again - don't fret too much about it, just bear it in mind.

I'm gonna head out to Marine Designs and go grab some stuff. I think I'm gonna put the fish in tommorow, and get all that dip stuff done tommorow also.

I highly recommend doing it today. Yesterday would have been better - but the more time that passes without treatment, the worse it's going to be. If you can't, you can't - but the sooner the better.

Do you have any idea how long it will take to get rid of the ich?

That's a loaded question Treatment is for 14 days. I'd leave the fish in QT another 14 days beyond that, after removing the medication at the completion of treatment just to make sure symptoms don't reappear and you have to start all over again. The symptoms may disappear sooner than that - Cupramine works pretty quickly. Even if the symptoms disappear, continue the full course of treatment. The stage of the life cycle of ich where it's on the fish, is only part of its life. After it leaves the fish, it reproduces and the tomonts (the reproductive stage of the parasite) release a new generation into the substrate, which then hatch and move into the water column, and eventually on to the fish... and repeat... and repeat...

As to the ich that is in the tank... it's there. It likely always was, and likely always will be (and yes, there are plenty of arguments to the contrary on that, but that's a whole other post). My own personal belief, which is shared by some, but not all, is that it resides in the fish. They always have it. In healthy fish, it's not apparent, and poses no problem. In a stressed or sick fish, the parasite has more opportunity and presents as you are seeing it now - it goes into overdrive. The ich itself won't likely kill the fish, but if the fish's immune system is already compromised, secondary infection has a gateway at the bite sites that the parasite leaves behind, and *that* is often what does in the fish.

There is a theory that if you leave the main tank fishless for 30 (or 60 or whatever, depending who you ask) days, it will interrupt the life cycle as there will be no host fish to allow the parasite to feed on, and thus it won't reproduce. While this makes perfect sense in theory, in reality I can tell you that re-infestation can and does happen. Thus my line of belief that it's always there as long as there's a fish.

I think my other clownfish is gonna get it because they share a mushroom, and they were huddling in it together earlier, so I'm pretty sure we have a problem.

The proximity of one fish to another really doesn't matter - but they are all in the same system with the same parasite so it's possible that the others will get it regardless - or they may not. Hence my mention yesterday that it might be a good idea to treat them all at the same time. My big reservation to that was that it's enough to put one fish in an uncycled QT - it's going to be worse to put 4 (there are 4 right?)... so my suggestion for now would be to put any with symptoms and watch the others and if any others develop symptoms, to move them to QT and do the same treatment.

It's not a perfect solution - but under the circumstances, it's probably the most doable.

I might even just treat him with the female, so she doesn't get too lonely, and freak out. I think it will be less stressful.

If you see any symptoms on the male, yes, move them both at the same time. If you don't, it's a toss up as to whether to treat them both, or just the one - I can think of as many reasons for as against - so you decide on that one

Oh, and one more question, if the female leaves the tank, and I decide not to take the male with her, will the male think she died and turn into a female, like they normally do when one dies, or will it have a special sense and know she's not dead, and stay a male?

It takes a long time for them to make the gender switch - so for a short term separation, I don't think this will even be a concern. The only issue you may encounter is if they "forget" each other and they may start doing the dominance dance again when you put them back together, as if they don't already know each other. That's one more reason "for" treating them together.

Thanks again Jenn!
Update ya later! I'm gonna go ahead and do the stability and pour more salwater in, and balance it out, then run out to my LFS.
Radha

You are most welcome Let me know the specific gravity of your QT when you can.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

radha;369957 wrote: Jenn? Are you there?

You can call me if you have more questions: 770-720-0103... although posting it all here is kinda good for anybody else going through the same stuff.

Sorry I've been on and off today - gotta try to do some work too

Jenn

 

[jennm]

radha;369951 wrote: Stay on here!! I dunno what to do!! I don't have a heater! I have a heater for the buckets, when I'm heating up my saltwater before the water change, what should I do? Just use that?

Use the bucket heater for the QT. Some folks eventually turn up the heat a bit in a hospital tank to speed up the life cycle of the ich... 81 or so is as high as my comfort zone goes, but some go a bit higher up to 83 or 84.

How big is the main tank? If you are worried about preparing water for water changes on the main tank... if it's room temp I wouldn't worry about keeping a heater in it. Room temp for most is around 78 this time of year anyway. If it was winter and you kept your water on the front porch, that might be another issue... but we don't heat our water for water changes, and we maintain tons of tanks - as long as you aren't changing a huge volume in a small tank, a small difference in temp from the main tank to the new water is no biggie.

Jenn

 

[radha]

JennM;369958 wrote: What's the specific gravity? Gimme a number.. (please )



Yes. Go ahead and do the Day 1 dose for a new aquarium. You can do the thing with the Matrix later. No worries there.



Relax. There's no test/quiz *g*... and parts of this are not exact science. The only thing I want you to consider exact science is the amount of Cupramine into the QT - and you're already on that, so you're set.




If you're short of water, keep that in mind when you dose the Cupramine. If you haven't dosed it already, wait until you are ready to move the fish. Dose it then, wait a bit, test it (maybe 30 minutes later) and you should be good to go. If you don't fill the tank, do a bit less than the suggested dosage of the Cupramine - to compensate for the bit less water. Again - don't fret too much about it, just bear it in mind.




I highly recommend doing it today. Yesterday would have been better - but the more time that passes without treatment, the worse it's going to be. If you can't, you can't - but the sooner the better.




That's a loaded question Treatment is for 14 days. I'd leave the fish in QT another 14 days beyond that, after removing the medication at the completion of treatment just to make sure symptoms don't reappear and you have to start all over again. The symptoms may disappear sooner than that - Cupramine works pretty quickly. Even if the symptoms disappear, continue the full course of treatment. The stage of the life cycle of ich where it's on the fish, is only part of its life. After it leaves the fish, it reproduces and the tomonts (the reproductive stage of the parasite) release a new generation into the substrate, which then hatch and move into the water column, and eventually on to the fish... and repeat... and repeat...

As to the ich that is in the tank... it's there. It likely always was, and likely always will be (and yes, there are plenty of arguments to the contrary on that, but that's a whole other post). My own personal belief, which is shared by some, but not all, is that it resides in the fish. They always have it. In healthy fish, it's not apparent, and poses no problem. In a stressed or sick fish, the parasite has more opportunity and presents as you are seeing it now - it goes into overdrive. The ich itself won't likely kill the fish, but if the fish's immune system is already compromised, secondary infection has a gateway at the bite sites that the parasite leaves behind, and *that* is often what does in the fish.

There is a theory that if you leave the main tank fishless for 30 (or 60 or whatever, depending who you ask) days, it will interrupt the life cycle as there will be no host fish to allow the parasite to feed on, and thus it won't reproduce. While this makes perfect sense in theory, in reality I can tell you that re-infestation can and does happen. Thus my line of belief that it's always there as long as there's a fish.




The proximity of one fish to another really doesn't matter - but they are all in the same system with the same parasite so it's possible that the others will get it regardless - or they may not. Hence my mention yesterday that it might be a good idea to treat them all at the same time. My big reservation to that was that it's enough to put one fish in an uncycled QT - it's going to be worse to put 4 (there are 4 right?)... so my suggestion for now would be to put any with symptoms and watch the others and if any others develop symptoms, to move them to QT and do the same treatment.

It's not a perfect solution - but under the circumstances, it's probably the most doable.



If you see any symptoms on the male, yes, move them both at the same time. If you don't, it's a toss up as to whether to treat them both, or just the one - I can think of as many reasons for as against - so you decide on that one



It takes a long time for them to make the gender switch - so for a short term separation, I don't think this will even be a concern. The only issue you may encounter is if they "forget" each other and they may start doing the dominance dance again when you put them back together, as if they don't already know each other. That's one more reason "for" treating them together.



You are most welcome Let me know the specific gravity of your QT when you can.

Jenn

Ok, specific gravity is 1.0175... yes, I am doing it specifically. I'm gonna get the stuff right now, after I finish writing this, I don't want my fish in the tank too long, but you wanna know what's weird? It seems like the ich has gon away a bit! Like, there are less spots on her body.

Is there any way you can overdose stability? I think I'm gonna wait to do it, since I can get the matrix in a bit, and I can do it with the matrix then. If you think it's ok, I might just drop the matrix in, without the bowl, but I'll see.

I understand about the amount of time to treat. The cupramine will work its course, we'll see how it goes.

To tell you the truth about the 4 fish, I don't think it would be much of a problem if we put them in AFTER the clownfish gets in there, because then it might have cycled a little better. The problem is catching them. The goby hardly ever comes out, and the jawfish can just hide in it's hole. It would take a long time, and stress them and me out even more. It's easier for me with the clownfish, but worst comes to worst, I might have to treat them all. I'm gonna feed her the garlic formula, until she can get into the QT.
Thanks again, Jenn (rhymes, rhymes!) I really appreciate all the help!!
Radha