Let the games... BEGIN!!
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OD85, I'd like to go back to the question that you asked about test kits.
In my experience, test kits are one of the more vague parts of a hobbyist's experience with aquariums. I've used a bunch of them, and there are a couple variables that I have noticed:
Potential for Human Error
Even the most careful person is likely to miss by a drop or two every now and then. It could be an extra 0.1mL of water, 4.5 drops of one of the reagents instead of 5, etc...
Accuracy of the Test Kit, Itself
Different kits seem to have different degrees of accuracy. If you take the accuracy of API and compare it to one of the SeaChem tests, there's a huge difference. API gives you a general idea of levels, and SeaChem gives you Pinpoint. Freakin'. Accuracy.... Dammit.
This also applies to individual test kits within the line... there have been bad batches of test kits, and there's got to be some variance in how good each one is.
Ease of Use
It's a factor. Look at Elos' Calcium test vs. Salifert, for example. It can be really easy to overshoot the measurement with Elos and have to go back a second time (but see below for "the big caveat"). At the same time, titration isn't everyone's cup of tea, either.
Red Sea's Nitrate Pro kit can be a real pain - 9 minute dwell time, and if you are near the upper end of the low range test (or lower end of the high range test), you need to do the other range test... with another 9 minute dwell time. Compare that to API's drops from two bottles and 5 minute dwell time.
...and so on and so forth.
Ease of Reading the Results
I have had one test sample show three different results in three different rooms, each with their own lighting.
Remember the API test I was talking about with Nitrates? There's a trade off for its ease. Once you get past around 40, it can be hard to tell if your water is at 40, 80, 120+ (but if it's over 40, how much does it really matter by how much it's over?)
"The Big Caveat"
How close is "close enough"?
Now THAT'S where I've seen feathers fly! Opinions range from "I've got a good idea of where things are, and how they look" all the way to "I want to know exactly what the level of X is, because my clam and corals do best when it is at Y ppm."
The answer really comes down to personal preference. In my opinion, when things are going well and things look good, I just need a general idea of my levels. If something's not quite right, I'll want something more precise. If something's gone awry, I either want to know if something is present (the level of ammonia wouldn't be concerning me as much as "is it there?"), or I want to know exactly how low something is so I can calculate any needed dosing.
As far as recommendations (painting with a really broad brush, here):
API tests are generally easy to use. Some tests are more accurate than others. Their Nitrate test is good for answering "Are my levels high or approaching high?" while their Ammonia and Nitrite tests are good for answering "Is it present in my system?" A couple of their other tests, like Calcium, surprised me with how close they got.
I have mixed thoughts on Red Sea tests... I don't dispute their accuracy, but they are squirrely enough for me to not want to mess with them that much. If your results approach borderline between high and low range, then you really want to do the test again at the other range, just to make sure you're getting the best information that you can. Also, the color matches they use can be hard to find. I have had all sorts of issues with their bottles not dispensing, clogging (taking a couple minutes to get ten drops), and leaking. I've even had the top pop off.
I really like many of the Salifert tests. Get good at titration, and you can get some very accurate results for Calcium and Alkalinity. Their nitrate test is a 3-minute dwell time, as opposed to 5 or 9. I am not a fan of their pH and Ammonia tests, however. I have never gotten an "all clear" on the Ammonia test, although I have gotten "all clear" facing one direction and a significant amount when facing another. When it comes to ammonia, I don't want to still be asking if it is there after testing.
SeaChem tests are historically spot-on accurate. They are the only test that I like to use when testing for copper. But depending on what you are testing for, you may need to jump some hurdles to get the results. Some of those tests are pretty tricky and pretty involved. But done correctly, "how close is close enough?" is answered "how about exact?".
It really does come down to personal preference. How close/exact do you need/want the results to be (and for which test)? How easily can you get those results?
Hope this helps!
In my experience, test kits are one of the more vague parts of a hobbyist's experience with aquariums. I've used a bunch of them, and there are a couple variables that I have noticed:
Potential for Human Error
Even the most careful person is likely to miss by a drop or two every now and then. It could be an extra 0.1mL of water, 4.5 drops of one of the reagents instead of 5, etc...
Accuracy of the Test Kit, Itself
Different kits seem to have different degrees of accuracy. If you take the accuracy of API and compare it to one of the SeaChem tests, there's a huge difference. API gives you a general idea of levels, and SeaChem gives you Pinpoint. Freakin'. Accuracy.... Dammit.
This also applies to individual test kits within the line... there have been bad batches of test kits, and there's got to be some variance in how good each one is.
Ease of Use
It's a factor. Look at Elos' Calcium test vs. Salifert, for example. It can be really easy to overshoot the measurement with Elos and have to go back a second time (but see below for "the big caveat"). At the same time, titration isn't everyone's cup of tea, either.
Red Sea's Nitrate Pro kit can be a real pain - 9 minute dwell time, and if you are near the upper end of the low range test (or lower end of the high range test), you need to do the other range test... with another 9 minute dwell time. Compare that to API's drops from two bottles and 5 minute dwell time.
...and so on and so forth.
Ease of Reading the Results
I have had one test sample show three different results in three different rooms, each with their own lighting.
Remember the API test I was talking about with Nitrates? There's a trade off for its ease. Once you get past around 40, it can be hard to tell if your water is at 40, 80, 120+ (but if it's over 40, how much does it really matter by how much it's over?)
"The Big Caveat"
How close is "close enough"?
Now THAT'S where I've seen feathers fly! Opinions range from "I've got a good idea of where things are, and how they look" all the way to "I want to know exactly what the level of X is, because my clam and corals do best when it is at Y ppm."
The answer really comes down to personal preference. In my opinion, when things are going well and things look good, I just need a general idea of my levels. If something's not quite right, I'll want something more precise. If something's gone awry, I either want to know if something is present (the level of ammonia wouldn't be concerning me as much as "is it there?"), or I want to know exactly how low something is so I can calculate any needed dosing.
As far as recommendations (painting with a really broad brush, here):
API tests are generally easy to use. Some tests are more accurate than others. Their Nitrate test is good for answering "Are my levels high or approaching high?" while their Ammonia and Nitrite tests are good for answering "Is it present in my system?" A couple of their other tests, like Calcium, surprised me with how close they got.
I have mixed thoughts on Red Sea tests... I don't dispute their accuracy, but they are squirrely enough for me to not want to mess with them that much. If your results approach borderline between high and low range, then you really want to do the test again at the other range, just to make sure you're getting the best information that you can. Also, the color matches they use can be hard to find. I have had all sorts of issues with their bottles not dispensing, clogging (taking a couple minutes to get ten drops), and leaking. I've even had the top pop off.
I really like many of the Salifert tests. Get good at titration, and you can get some very accurate results for Calcium and Alkalinity. Their nitrate test is a 3-minute dwell time, as opposed to 5 or 9. I am not a fan of their pH and Ammonia tests, however. I have never gotten an "all clear" on the Ammonia test, although I have gotten "all clear" facing one direction and a significant amount when facing another. When it comes to ammonia, I don't want to still be asking if it is there after testing.
SeaChem tests are historically spot-on accurate. They are the only test that I like to use when testing for copper. But depending on what you are testing for, you may need to jump some hurdles to get the results. Some of those tests are pretty tricky and pretty involved. But done correctly, "how close is close enough?" is answered "how about exact?".
It really does come down to personal preference. How close/exact do you need/want the results to be (and for which test)? How easily can you get those results?
Hope this helps!
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Is that the order of the media in the direction of the water flow that you'd recommend, Josh?
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Holy crap, Brick!! Thanks so much! I guess I'll be looking at seachem tests. Is there anything they make that DOESN'T work as prescribed!? Haha. Seriously, though- thank you so much for taking all of that time to explain things in such great detail.
Holy epic thread, Batman!
How did I miss this?
I have a couple of questions...that I haven't seen addressed here yet...
What are *all* of your parameters? Include temperature and specific gravity please.
I'm stuck back on what may have caused the ammonia spike when you added the rock you bought from the other hobbyist, to your system - that should not have happened if the rock was moved within a couple of hours and not allowed to dry out.
Matrix is the best biological media out there, in my opinion, but I don't suggest adding it in the same container as chemical media that you change out. Matrix should be left there. It shouldn't tumble. It needs to be allowed to grow colonies of beneficial bacteria and that process gets disturbed if you're emptying a reactor of other media, or worse, changing out the Matrix - you throw away those good bacteria when you change out Matrix.
A small tank does not need to be complicated. In fact, I've always been a 'keep it simple' type. In nearly 30 years in and around the hobby, the simple stuff that adheres to the science, still works best. All the toys and bells and whistles aren't worth a tinker's curse if the basics aren't understood and applied.
What test kit are you using now that was registering the high ammonia and how old is the kit?
I'm going backwards here... but as best I can tell, the original source of the problem wasn't figured out, and no amount of tinkering will prevent that from happening again, if the cause wasn't determined and addressed.
Jenn
How did I miss this?
I have a couple of questions...that I haven't seen addressed here yet...
What are *all* of your parameters? Include temperature and specific gravity please.
I'm stuck back on what may have caused the ammonia spike when you added the rock you bought from the other hobbyist, to your system - that should not have happened if the rock was moved within a couple of hours and not allowed to dry out.
Matrix is the best biological media out there, in my opinion, but I don't suggest adding it in the same container as chemical media that you change out. Matrix should be left there. It shouldn't tumble. It needs to be allowed to grow colonies of beneficial bacteria and that process gets disturbed if you're emptying a reactor of other media, or worse, changing out the Matrix - you throw away those good bacteria when you change out Matrix.
A small tank does not need to be complicated. In fact, I've always been a 'keep it simple' type. In nearly 30 years in and around the hobby, the simple stuff that adheres to the science, still works best. All the toys and bells and whistles aren't worth a tinker's curse if the basics aren't understood and applied.
What test kit are you using now that was registering the high ammonia and how old is the kit?
I'm going backwards here... but as best I can tell, the original source of the problem wasn't figured out, and no amount of tinkering will prevent that from happening again, if the cause wasn't determined and addressed.
Jenn
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Hey, Jenn- in kind of a hurry, but let me see if I can hit the basics-
I have the API saltwater with the basic Ammo, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph test. Not sure about it's expiration date. Got it at Petsmart a few months back.
SG- 1.025
Temp- 78
Ammo- off the charts
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
Dosing prime and stability daily with no impact on ammo.
Frequent water changes have not helped.
I have the API saltwater with the basic Ammo, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph test. Not sure about it's expiration date. Got it at Petsmart a few months back.
SG- 1.025
Temp- 78
Ammo- off the charts
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
Dosing prime and stability daily with no impact on ammo.
Frequent water changes have not helped.
I'm wondering if your test kit is bad. It might explain everything.
BTW - nobody else has mentioned this but you might want to rethink damsels. They're cheap and durable but they are evil incarnate and inevitably people regret them.
Before bending over backward (or forward) with anything else, I would check the water or have it checked, with a decent test kit. You may have initially hit the panic button over a false positive.
How are you cleaning your test tubes? Even dirty test tubes can skew a result.
After checking all of that, I'd stop tinkering. Dose Prime if it's truly needed, and Stability if it's truly needed (both are IFs with the possibility of a faulty test kit being the problem).
During a normal cycling process (without livestock) I tell folks to let it be. The more you tinker (ie with water changes), the longer it takes, because every time it tries to find its equilibrium, a water change presses the proverbial reset button, and it has to try all over again to find its equilibrium. You *can* tinker it right to death, and drive yourself insane in the process, as well as to the poorhouse with remedies. The presence of livestock can trump this since you don't want to put them through undue suffering - at this point I'd suggest removing any livestock and let it settle out if that's at all possible for you to do. Failing that, Prime should keep the water safe for them, even if not ideal, and Stability should level things out in about a week to 10 days.
What all livestock do you have in there now?
I find it hard to believe that after all this time there's ammonia off the charts yet no nitrite or nitrate. Something isn't right there.
Also, what's the pH?
Jenn
BTW - nobody else has mentioned this but you might want to rethink damsels. They're cheap and durable but they are evil incarnate and inevitably people regret them.
Before bending over backward (or forward) with anything else, I would check the water or have it checked, with a decent test kit. You may have initially hit the panic button over a false positive.
How are you cleaning your test tubes? Even dirty test tubes can skew a result.
After checking all of that, I'd stop tinkering. Dose Prime if it's truly needed, and Stability if it's truly needed (both are IFs with the possibility of a faulty test kit being the problem).
During a normal cycling process (without livestock) I tell folks to let it be. The more you tinker (ie with water changes), the longer it takes, because every time it tries to find its equilibrium, a water change presses the proverbial reset button, and it has to try all over again to find its equilibrium. You *can* tinker it right to death, and drive yourself insane in the process, as well as to the poorhouse with remedies. The presence of livestock can trump this since you don't want to put them through undue suffering - at this point I'd suggest removing any livestock and let it settle out if that's at all possible for you to do. Failing that, Prime should keep the water safe for them, even if not ideal, and Stability should level things out in about a week to 10 days.
What all livestock do you have in there now?
I find it hard to believe that after all this time there's ammonia off the charts yet no nitrite or nitrate. Something isn't right there.
Also, what's the pH?
Jenn
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yeah, I'm starting to think it's my test kit to be honest.. I'm starting to get really frustrated.
I'm on my second bottle of stability and near the end of my prime and the readings are still the same.
PH is 8.3
and yes.. everyone and their mother has told me about damsels. I still like them
The only two things I have in there are two small damsels. one blue and one golden.
I'm on my second bottle of stability and near the end of my prime and the readings are still the same.
PH is 8.3
and yes.. everyone and their mother has told me about damsels. I still like them
The only two things I have in there are two small damsels. one blue and one golden.
In addition to the damsels, what other fishes do you intend to keep? That could be a deal breaker one way or the other.
API kits seem to have a short shelf life. I can't tell you how many times over the years, somebody brought me a sample with a 0.25 ammonia reading with API, that had no problem.
Same with nitrates - they showed off the chart, I found them within acceptable levels (under 10 ppm). The kits just plain expire.
I test with Seachem, which also comes with a reference sample with a known value so you can test the kit itself to see that it's reading correctly.
I'm leaning toward there being a problem with the kit itself.
Jenn
API kits seem to have a short shelf life. I can't tell you how many times over the years, somebody brought me a sample with a 0.25 ammonia reading with API, that had no problem.
Same with nitrates - they showed off the chart, I found them within acceptable levels (under 10 ppm). The kits just plain expire.
I test with Seachem, which also comes with a reference sample with a known value so you can test the kit itself to see that it's reading correctly.
I'm leaning toward there being a problem with the kit itself.
Jenn
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Let's hope so, Jenn. Maybe I'll bring a sample by the fish store this week?
I'd love to keep clowns in the future.. But after expanding to a larger tank. I'm basically using this nano to get started maturing the rock and sand and the water column and to learn more about taking care of some corals.
I'd love to keep clowns in the future.. But after expanding to a larger tank. I'm basically using this nano to get started maturing the rock and sand and the water column and to learn more about taking care of some corals.
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ok. Also-
I tested my tap water and got a 0 ammonia reading, so.. I'm not sure at this point that it IS my test kit. maybe I need to swap out a filter in my HOB filter? I'm feeding every few days instead of every day and I just can't figure out what the heck is going on.
Everywhere on line I see amazing testimony about Seachem stability but it doesn't seem to be doing a thing yet.. I got one bottle from PetCo this past Thursday and already went through it. I bought another bottle of Stability at PetLand in Dunwoody (the GF wanted to look at puppies..) and I'm dosing a capful twice a day.. and still nothing.
It's like something is dumping massive quantities of ammonia into my water column and no BB is developing.
I tested my tap water and got a 0 ammonia reading, so.. I'm not sure at this point that it IS my test kit. maybe I need to swap out a filter in my HOB filter? I'm feeding every few days instead of every day and I just can't figure out what the heck is going on.
Everywhere on line I see amazing testimony about Seachem stability but it doesn't seem to be doing a thing yet.. I got one bottle from PetCo this past Thursday and already went through it. I bought another bottle of Stability at PetLand in Dunwoody (the GF wanted to look at puppies..) and I'm dosing a capful twice a day.. and still nothing.
It's like something is dumping massive quantities of ammonia into my water column and no BB is developing.
Don't overdose on Stability. The dose for a brand new tank is a double dose on the first day, then a single dose each day for the next 7 days. You're overdosing - see my comments about tinkering right to death.
When you water change are you vacuuming the substrate? How often do you rinse any filter pads?
Even if you had a dead fish decaying in there, it should cycle through in about a week (unless it was a huge fish).
Smaller tanks are less forgiving but even if you had something unseen, rotting away, it should have processed by now.
Jenn
When you water change are you vacuuming the substrate? How often do you rinse any filter pads?
Even if you had a dead fish decaying in there, it should cycle through in about a week (unless it was a huge fish).
Smaller tanks are less forgiving but even if you had something unseen, rotting away, it should have processed by now.
Jenn
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I've vaccuumed the substrate. I've nuked my live rock thinking that something was decaying (the original purpose of this thread), I'm definitely overdosing on stability, but I'll stop. Nothing dead and decaying in there and the damsels are sucking up all the food.
I haven't rinsed my filter pad in about a week and a half, two weeks.. not since the initial super spike and cycle crash. I usually just rinse it in tap water and put it back.
I haven't rinsed my filter pad in about a week and a half, two weeks.. not since the initial super spike and cycle crash. I usually just rinse it in tap water and put it back.
That's fine on the rinsing - I suggest rinsing weekly, replacing monthly - sooner if it's needed (ie it's funky and doesn't rinse clean).
Nuking the live rock such as you did there may have been some organic matter left over not likely enough to be problematic, but I'm still puzzled about what started that in the first place, hence my suspicion about the test kit being bad.
You got the rock from someone else - everything appeared fine in that tank, but of course parameters of that tank are a variable we won't ever know the answers to, but it's reasonable to assume that there was no ammonia or nitrite in that tank (there could have been high nitrate and/or phosphate but that wouldn't cause the issues you're having now).
Describe the process/length of time it took for you to move the rock from the other person's tank to yours? If you moved it within a couple of hours or so you shouldn't have experienced any issues of concern.
Nuking the rock such as you did, should have removed just about everything living and organic. Other than it being devoid of anything beneficial, it should also have been devoid of anything detrimental at that point.
Kind of a weird trend nowadays, folks totally nuking rock - might as well just start with dry base rock ::: shrug ::: cheaper and more foolproof.
BTW, do I remember right -you have some GSP that's closed up? Don't worry about it, it can stay that way for weeks and still come back.
What are you using to test specific gravity?
Nuking the live rock such as you did there may have been some organic matter left over not likely enough to be problematic, but I'm still puzzled about what started that in the first place, hence my suspicion about the test kit being bad.
You got the rock from someone else - everything appeared fine in that tank, but of course parameters of that tank are a variable we won't ever know the answers to, but it's reasonable to assume that there was no ammonia or nitrite in that tank (there could have been high nitrate and/or phosphate but that wouldn't cause the issues you're having now).
Describe the process/length of time it took for you to move the rock from the other person's tank to yours? If you moved it within a couple of hours or so you shouldn't have experienced any issues of concern.
Nuking the rock such as you did, should have removed just about everything living and organic. Other than it being devoid of anything beneficial, it should also have been devoid of anything detrimental at that point.
Kind of a weird trend nowadays, folks totally nuking rock - might as well just start with dry base rock ::: shrug ::: cheaper and more foolproof.
BTW, do I remember right -you have some GSP that's closed up? Don't worry about it, it can stay that way for weeks and still come back.
What are you using to test specific gravity?
We DID talk about the damsels, different thread.
I'm pretty sure I also suggested the test kit may be bad! Either way, listen to this lady. She has 1,000x more experience than most of the reefers here in this thread myself especially!
I'm pretty sure I also suggested the test kit may be bad! Either way, listen to this lady. She has 1,000x more experience than most of the reefers here in this thread myself especially!
