nitrate dilemma

This is where I disagree.

There was absolutely zero evidence that the compounds he lists were the compounds removed. In fact, the actual lab results didn't list compounds at all (why he didn't go in that direction is mind boggling). For starters, his entire analysis is done via ratios by weight, which is pretty stupid when you consider how much more some of these elements weigh than others. That's sort of like saying most of the water we drink is made up of oxygen because when you look at the elemental make up of water by weight, a huge (~88%) proportion of it would be oxygen (oxygen weighs 15x more than hydrogen). A correct measurement, looking at moles, shows us that Hydrogen outnumbers Oxygen 2 to 1. He should have measured quantity in moles if he wanted a true breakdown of the skimmate.

The elemental results listed (by weight):
C: 21.08 %
H: 2.39 %
N: 2.22 %
Ca:17.43 %
Mg: 1.35 %
Si: 4.76 %
P: 0.16 %

The same results in molecular quantities, showing a true breakdown:

C: 35%
H: 48%
N: 3%
Ca: 9%
Mg: 1%
Si: 3%
P: 0%

The author even states several times that he has no evidence that these base elements are a result of the compounds he listed (and yet still presented as fact). He just repeats that his conclusions are assumed four or five times until he jumps to the final conclusion that the compounds listed were the compounds present in the samples i.e. presenting false data long enough that he starts to believe it.

And that doesn't address the many other issues with the various tests, including a complete lack of stoichiometric examinations, ruling out possible outlier variables (he mentions the calcium reactor return being near the skimmer), and even something simple like looking at atomic numbers instead of molecular weight.

The fact that he jumps straight to calcium carbonate actually amazes me because Calcium Carbonate is a surfactant and pretty much directly opposes what a skimmer does chemically.
 
Crew;1043012 wrote: This is where I disagree.

...The fact that he jumps straight to calcium carbonate actually amazes me because Calcium Carbonate is a surfactant and pretty much directly opposes what a skimmer does chemically.

except... a skimmer does nothing chemically. It is a mechanical filtration.

Some of the things I will touch on later... But lets assume you grab one live copepod.

How many organic carbon compounds would you need to equal the weight of that one copepod. The fact that skimmate even grabs metals, rocks etc just goes to show that it is just a particle suspender. The assumptions that your skimmate doesnt grab copepods, worms, and a plethora of other life that breaks down detritus naturally is false.

If i want DOC out of my tank ill chuck in carbon.

If i want to get more organic compounds that have yet to break down, ill use a filter sock or sponge.

Take a filter sock and weigh the organics you grabbed in 24 hours and do the same with the skimmate. Pretty sure the sock wins every time unless you never feed.
 
I'm missing a comma there, which is why it might not make sense. The skimmer "foams" the water via surface tension. Calcium Carbonate, being a surfactant, is extremely resistant to that exact process on a chemical level.
 
Crew;1043017 wrote: I'm missing a comma there, which is why it might not make sense. The skimmer "foams" the water via surface tension. Calcium Carbonate, being a surfactant, is extremely resistant to that exact process on a chemical level.

calcium carbonate is NOT a surfactant... it hardens water. i don't know what you are getting at with advocating this. It is not even soluble in water. It is soluble in OIL.
 
Let's forget the whole skimmer thing. You know best. I'm in fairy-tale-land like Jesse stated, and we can leave it like that. The whole purpose of this thread is to get nitrate up, not explain my views on chemical, biological, and mechanical filtration in our glass boxes.

plus i want no hard feelings at the end of the day
 
Russ-IV;1043025 wrote: why do you think people switch out their substrates every few years? its not just po4.
crushed coral traps detritus but even if you clean it, its still bound up.

i had nitrate issues for a year with my 220 and couldnt get it below 20 until i changed the substrate and rocks.

ask anyone or check youtube of people with the same issue.

also. too many people have ditched their skimmer and biopellets for the very same issue. countless articles litter the net.

i have no pellets, no skimmer, feed my pants off, and still have nitrates i cant keep above .5 ppm. skimmer has already been invalidated.

the only time i would use a skimmer is if the tank was overstocked and you had too much poo and trash for your natural biosphere to take care of it.
even then... you will still have nitrates climbing and have to resort to an ats or carbon.

Oh brother :doh:

I'd suggest reading these.

The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners,
Part 4: What Chemicals May Detrimentally Accumulate
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php">http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php</a>


Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm</a>
 
DawgFace;1043044 wrote: Oh brother :doh:

I'd suggest reading these.

The &#8220;How To&#8221; Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners,
Part 4: What Chemicals May Detrimentally Accumulate
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php">http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php</a>


Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm</a>[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2029597">oh lord... copying from Randy Holmes on reef central verbatim</a>


[IMG]http://www.reefaquarium.com/2013/curing-rock-for-marine-aquariums/">now can we go beyond your fantasy land a minute and return to earth?</a>

i love how you have disproven old-tank-syndrome with just those 2 links.

you add nothing to this conversation what-so-ever
 
Russ-IV;1043045 wrote: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2029597">oh lord... copying from Randy Holmes on reef central verbatim</a>


[IMG]http://www.reefaquarium.com/2013/curing-rock-for-marine-aquariums/">now can we go beyond your fantasy land a minute and return to earth?</a>

i love how you have disproven old-tank-syndrome with just those 2 links.

you add nothing to this conversation what-so-ever[/QUOTE]

OK , where's your proof of your counterclaim?

Belief, internet rumor or what.
 
And by the way I love how you propel "Old Tank Syndrome" to the for front of your claims dealing with a new tank. LOL A little presumptuous wouldn't you say.

Never mind that Old Tank Syndrome is anecdotal at best, actually more like myth and legend told by the fisherman's beard itself. But hell, your probably right, either that or it's Nessie herself in the tank causing the issue.
 
DawgFace;1043048 wrote: OK smartass, where's your proof of your counterclaim?

Belief, internet rumor or what.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20to%20cook%20live%20rock">ask and you shall receive</a>

nitrates do not chemically bind with "live" rock... but that rock doesnt have a heart beat and a pulse either. So dont get literal.
 
DawgFace;1043051 wrote: And by the way I love how you propel "Old Tank Syndrome" to the for front of your claims dealing with a new tank. LOL A little presumptuous wouldn't you say.

Never mind that Old Tank Syndrome is anecdotal at best, actually more like myth and legend told by the fisherman's beard itself. But hell, your probably right, either that or it's Nessie herself in the tank causing the issue.

i dont even have nitrates

here... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why+does+my+old+tank+have+nitrates%3F">tell them they are all crazy</a>

[IMG]http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=214">this one?</a>

I guess you can go around proposing the truth to all the seekers that this never exists.

and im the heretic? lol
 
JimmyStephens;1042823 wrote: Imo: I would just leave it all alone chemical/dosing wise and just let the tank run its course. I've seen more damage to tanks by chasing numbers. If cyno is the problem may be cut back on the hours or intensity of the leds.

Sn4k33y3z;1042908 wrote: You also mentioned cyano being visibly present. I once had an "outbreak" and through some research and through others, I found out I actually had detectable nitrates and phosphates. I was thrown off because the cyano was consuming(fueling) it. Once I treated the cyano and retested, I found out I had 10ppm of Nitrate.

Something to consider...

Back to the topic of increasing nitrates, I would do as stated above. The cyano is feeding on the nitrates in the tank, so if you don't add more (NO3), it will slowly starve itself out, and you may come to find that there is nitrates in the tank. Otherwise, you may be waiting money feeding algae.
 
Russ-IV;1043054 wrote: i dont even have nitrates

here... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why+does+my+old+tank+have+nitrates%3F">tell them they are all crazy</a>

[IMG]http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=214">this one?</a>

I guess you can go around proposing the truth to all the seekers that this never exists.

and im the heretic? lol[/QUOTE]

Love your argument and style.

Links lead to a google search, "why do I have nitrates" Which seems somehow fitting for this thread.

The second link being a Freshwater link to "old tank syndrome". Which no where does it state that No3 is present anywhere other than the water column.

[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature</a>
No No3 binding here

[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2</a>
Still nothing. More so, aquarist laziness is more or less the cause.

[IMG]http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Old_Tank_Syndrome">http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Old_Tank_Syndrome</a>

All of which clearly describe "Old Tank Syndrome" as a blanket diagnoses for a multitude of possible problems. I'd say it's synonymous with old age in general. General adolescent thinking is we'll all die of old age, clearly we've been educated well enough to have a better understanding of life... If not, well, bummer.


That's all I care to give.

Call it whatever you like, do whatever process, scheme or method your advanced knowledge has taught you I'll bow out and only return for entertainment purposes.
 
DawgFace;1043057 wrote: Love your argument and style.

Links lead to a google search, "why do I have nitrates" Which seems somehow fitting for this thread.

The second link being a Freshwater link to "old tank syndrome". Which no where does it state that No3 is present anywhere other than the water column.

The blanket searches do show a relevance to this fairy tale of "old tank syndrome" that way doesnt it?</em>

DawgFace;1043057 wrote:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature</a>
No No3 binding here
[/QUOTE]

[I]OH WOW! You found the fairy tale of the old tank syndrome! It does exist!
actually only 1 mention of nitrates throughout the whole article. [B]I guess we should assume that old neglected tanks don't accumulate nitrate now.[/B] Im sure fellow aquarists will disagree.
Interesting about how phosphate binds but im assuming you meant chemically.</em>

[QUOTE=][B]DawgFace;1043057 wrote:[/B]
[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2</a>
Still nothing. More so, aquarist laziness is more or less the cause.
[/QUOTE]

[I]no mention of phosphate binding here either. Does this invalidate your prior link?</em>

[QUOTE=][B]DawgFace;1043057 wrote:[/B]
[IMG]http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Old_Tank_Syndrome">http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Old_Tank_Syndrome</a>

All of which clearly describe "Old Tank Syndrome" as a blanket diagnoses for a multitude of possible problems. I'd say it's synonymous with old age in general. General adolescent thinking is we'll all die of old age, clearly we've been educated well enough to have a better understanding of life... If not, well, bummer.
[/QUOTE]

[I]THIS is my new bible for tank crashes that [B]dont exist[/B].</em>

"Ammonia levels increase as reverse nitrifying occurs. Deep in the substrate, denitrifying bacteria grows where there is no oxygen present and converts nitrogen back into ammonia.
Solution
Clean or turn over the substrate regularly. Ensure it is not too deep (&lt; 2&quot;).&quot;

[I]So the stuff that doesnt exist turns in to stuff we conveniently now want to exist and it magically turns to ammonia. I thought it was only in the water column. What happened? I am also assuming that denitrification does not exist in anaerobic areas of LR and only in the sand. This is getting better and better</em>


[QUOTE=][B]DawgFace;1043057 wrote:[/B]
That's all I care to give.

Call it whatever you like, do whatever process, scheme or method your advanced knowledge has taught you I'll bow out and only return for entertainment purposes.[/QUOTE]

[I]It was just beginning to get entertaining. lol</em>
 
33epumt.jpg
alt="" />

just what every growing reef tank needs.


and the test that shows, i have less nitrate than you. lol

ih4gnr.jpg
alt="" />

im not even going to put a control vial in there. it is grey.
 
Gee, I went to work and I missed a lot ;)

That Seachem Flourish Nitrogen is a freshwater supplement to fertilize freshwater plants. I don't think it's recommended for use in a reef tank, and you aren't trying to feed plants. They also make a product containing phosphorus and iron - all things that leafy plants need. Plants... not algae, not corals. I felt it necessary to point that out because somebody might be misled (inadvertently or otherwise). It's along the same thinking as the phosphorus and nitrogen you might use on your lawn or garden plants.

There is no such thing as "Old Tank Syndrome." That is a big misnomer. It's a euphemism for "Lazy Hobbyist Syndrome" or even "Crappy Maintenance Service Syndrome". I have maintained and rehabilitated systems that are well over 10 years old - one is at least 20 now (my former maintenance tech still maintains it to this day). A properly maintained tank does not have to succumb to nutrient buildup and crashes. The fact is, people get lazy and complacent, stop doing adequate water changes or testing, stop changing their media when they should, and the water degrades until one day it crashes. Period. If a tank is consistently maintained and monitored, it should be able to run indefinitely, provided there is no catastrophic equipment failure.

Jenn
 
As other stated, I believe your nitrates are being consumed by the cyno, and algae in your tank. I went through a similar situation when I started up my tank. Once your system stabilizes it should allow the biological process to keep up with the nitrogen cycle. is it possible your confusing phosphstes with nitrates in terms of it binding in material? Phosphates will bind to live rock and substrate. However, nitrates are a result, as you stated diatris building up in the sandbed and in cracks and crevices with too little flow. In your tanks current state, by adding more nitrates essentially your going to feed the algae and it will continue to flourish. I'm not critizing you, just offering an explination for the issues your currently experiencing.
 
JennM;1043107 wrote: Gee, I went to work and I missed a lot ;)

That Seachem Flourish Nitrogen is a freshwater supplement to fertilize freshwater plants. I don't think it's recommended for use in a reef tank, and you aren't trying to feed plants. They also make a product containing phosphorus and iron - all things that leafy plants need. Plants... not algae, not corals. I felt it necessary to point that out because somebody might be misled (inadvertently or otherwise). It's along the same thinking as the phosphorus and nitrogen you might use on your lawn or garden plants.

There is no such thing as "Old Tank Syndrome." That is a big misnomer. It's a euphemism for "Lazy Hobbyist Syndrome" or even "Crappy Maintenance Service Syndrome". I have maintained and rehabilitated systems that are well over 10 years old - one is at least 20 now (my former maintenance tech still maintains it to this day). A properly maintained tank does not have to succumb to nutrient buildup and crashes. The fact is, people get lazy and complacent, stop doing adequate water changes or testing, stop changing their media when they should, and the water degrades until one day it crashes. Period. If a tank is consistently maintained and monitored, it should be able to run indefinitely, provided there is no catastrophic equipment failure.

Jenn

id like to see this "indefinite" system with no substrate change. even tanks that are 20+ years old change out their substrate.

to answer your question. seachem's flourish (nitrogen) is potassium nitrate. it doesnt matter if it is meant for freshwater or salt. fortunately i have a potassium test kit.
 
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